peer review.

Why did you cut my first sentence out when you were quoting my post? lol
Why did I not ask Gravy to do the numbers? I think most rational people understand 9/11 without numbers. You think Ross's work is good, you missed his errors, and thus you actually support Global Collapse by gravity. ( I think Gravy can beat me and you without numbers, So?)

I gave you Ross's numbers. Having trouble with them? Maybe you should use a clean napkin and start over.
Oops, I did, they are still wrong and I posted a web site from Newton Bits who confirms the errors. Darn two to zero. (Go ahead support the work of Ross against the errors reported in the work I posted, take your time)

I get it. You throw up Greening when he supports your predetermined conclusions based on nothing, but if he disagrees with your beliefs then he's wrong.
I never have said anything about Greening's stuff you posted. It does not mean anything to 9/11 facts. I can detect opinions vs actually math and engineering work. You have a problem with that. Go back to school.

Thanks for clearing it up.
Thank you.
 
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Gordon Ross agreed to the disputation that pomeroo set up. Greening and RMackey and Newtons Bit all said no.

Whos running from who again?

This is ONLY about the latest paper by Bazant and Dr. Greening. In engineering, I cannot stand by someone elses work until I own it. I don't have the time to do that with that paper. I would be all for a "disputation" about the actual collapse. I'm not going to try and defend someone elses paper.

realcddeal said:
In an e-mail I informed Dr. Jones that I had challenged you to write a critiquing letter of my paper. I am sure it would be published, as was Newton's Bit's letter concerning his critique of one of Gordon Ross' papers.
Jones declined to publish my second letter which actually refutes Ross' paper and shows that global collapse, even with Ross's extremely conservative assumptions, cannot be resisted. Explain that. Oh, that's right, they couldn't wave their hand and say "show us calculations" like they did with my first letter. Well, I did show the calculations. And it they can't refute my calculations so they ignored them. Explain that. They're a bunch of frauds.

They regularly they use "factors of safety" and other information they can't back up. So they claim they're experts in the field of structural engineering. They're not. If they were to sharpen their pencils and actually do the real numbers they would reach real conclusions. But they don't. They hide in subterfuge and shadows of fake numbers because they're afraid of real results.
 
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This is ONLY about the latest paper by Bazant and Dr. Greening. In engineering, I cannot stand by someone elses work until I own it. I don't have the time to do that with that paper.


Jones declined to publish my second letter which actually refutes Ross' paper and shows that global collapse, even with Ross's extremely conservative assumptions, cannot be resisted. Explain that. Oh, that's right, they couldn't wave their hand and say "show us calculations". Well, I did. And it they can't refute my calculations so they ignored them. Explain that. They're a bunch of frauds.

I didn't know you had a letter declined. How could I?

What reason did he give for declining it?
 
I didn't know you had a letter declined. How could I?

What reason did he give for declining it?

Dr. Jones said:
I should note (while traveling) that Trevor S has already had a letter published (anonymous, at his request) and a response from Gordon Ross published. Another exchange could be published if the first response is thoroughly addressed, but I should add that Prof. Kenneth Kuttler in a separate letter arrives at conclusions similar to those reached by Gordon Ross-- depending on the safety factor designed and built into the Towers. It seems that at this stage, therefore, Trevor S would need to address both Gordon Ross and Kenneth Kuttler -- in particular, where is Prof. Kuttler's calculation wrong? (If indeed it is wrong.) Note also that in inelastic collisions, considerable energy will be carried away by sound and seismic vibrations and heating of the dust, a point that appears to have been overlooked by Trevor S.

This is the last message I received from the "journal". I sent a response to this email and it was not replied to. I have never heard anything from Ross except the letter that was published on the "journal".

You can read into that as you will. However, the particularly interesting part is where he thinks that sound, vibrations and heating of the dust is significant in a collision. Significant enough that it sinks ten times more energy than the buckling of all the massive columns (core and perimeter).

The only thing I've found that Kuttler did was calculations on collapse time, which isn't really relevant to the claims that Ross is making, namely that the collapse would self arrest. This is a claim that Jones does not want to see destroyed.

As far as you not knowing that, I had a post about this on the forums when I originally sent the letter to the "journal". It was probably before you started posting here.
 
This is the last message I received from the "journal". I sent a response to this email and it was not replied to. I have never heard anything from Ross except the letter that was published on the "journal".

You can read into that as you will. However, the particularly interesting part is where he thinks that sound, vibrations and heating of the dust is significant in a collision. Significant enough that it sinks ten times more energy than the buckling of all the massive columns (core and perimeter).

The only thing I've found that Kuttler did was calculations on collapse time, which isn't really relevant to the claims that Ross is making, namely that the collapse would self arrest. This is a claim that Jones does not want to see destroyed.

As far as you not knowing that, I had a post about this on the forums when I originally sent the letter to the "journal". It was probably before you started posting here.

I would have to read your paper to fully appreciate the disagreement. Have you considered updating it to show what sort of levels of energy would be involved in vibration, sound, and heating during the pulverization of the concrete and wallboard in the towers?
 
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I fail to see why they would move the goal posts on the second letter you had already wrote prior to publishing it. They should have published it, and then allowed a third letter, if desired, with you addressing the new guy, Dr. Kuttler.

I smell a rat...and his name is S. Jones.

TAM:)
 
I would have to read your paper to fully appreciate the disagreement. Have you considered updating it to show what sort of levels of energy would be involved in vibration, sound, and heating during the pulverization of the concrete and wallboard in the towers?

The paper is at newtonsbit.blogspot.com Most of it is about the concept of buckling, which my first paper was about. Ross wanted to see calculations on how far off he was: 269% too large.

The point about inelastic buckling is in the third and second to last paragraph. Inelastic collisions are easily defined by conservation of momentum:

m1v1 = m2v2
where
m = mass at two different time periods (1 and 2)
v = velocity as corresponding time periods.

At these time periods, there is a kinetic energy 1/2 m*v^2. Since the mass and velocity are linearly dependent on each other in the conservation of momentum equal, there is a change in kinetic energy between the two time stamps.

To make a complicated subject seem simple: in an inelastic collision two objects basically become one and there is a change in kinetic energy (0.5*mass*velocity^2). This change in kinetic energy is equal to the strain energy exerted on the two objects. This available strain energy goes into the buckling of columns, the "dustification" of concrete, sound, heat, etc. If there is more change in kinetic energy than what the strain energy can exert, you just had a penetration (think bullet) or some other complicated issue.

For example, imagine two cars with equal mass and equal velocity colliding in a head on collision. Your common sense tells you that these cars will be brought to an almost complete and near-sudden stop with massive damage to the cars. The change in kinetic energy is equal to the energy on the cars, minus sound, head, vibrations, etc. Ross is trying to say in his paper that the change in momentum stops the cars but any additional damage should be done by explosives since there is no more available energy in the impact. It's downright ludicrous.

I will never address the "vibration, sound, and heating" because Ross does not. I'm keeping the same assumptions in his paper. He assumes they're insignificant and not worth addressing and so do I. If he thinks "vibration, sound, and heating" are significant, he needs to modify his paper. He won't though, because it's absurd to think that "vibration, sound, and heating" can cause any significant sink in energy. It's almost always completely neglected in engineering calculations because it's so tiny.

It's just a red herring.
 
The paper is at newtonsbit.blogspot.com Most of it is about the concept of buckling, which my first paper was about. Ross wanted to see calculations on how far off he was: 269% too large.

The point about inelastic buckling is in the third and second to last paragraph. Inelastic collisions are easily defined by conservation of momentum:

m1v1 = m2v2
where
m = mass at two different time periods (1 and 2)
v = velocity as corresponding time periods.

At these time periods, there is a kinetic energy 1/2 m*v^2. Since the mass and velocity are linearly dependent on each other in the conservation of momentum equal, there is a change in kinetic energy between the two time stamps.

To make a complicated subject seem simple: in an inelastic collision two objects basically become one and there is a change in kinetic energy (0.5*mass*velocity^2). This change in kinetic energy is equal to the strain energy exerted on the two objects. This available strain energy goes into the buckling of columns, the "dustification" of concrete, sound, heat, etc. If there is more change in kinetic energy than what the strain energy can exert, you just had a penetration (think bullet) or some other complicated issue.

For example, imagine two cars with equal mass and equal velocity colliding in a head on collision. Your common sense tells you that these cars will be brought to an almost complete and near-sudden stop with massive damage to the cars. The change in kinetic energy is equal to the energy on the cars, minus sound, head, vibrations, etc. Ross is trying to say in his paper that the change in momentum stops the cars but any additional damage should be done by explosives since there is no more available energy in the impact. It's downright ludicrous.

I will never address the "vibration, sound, and heating" because Ross does not. I'm keeping the same assumptions in his paper. He assumes they're insignificant and not worth addressing and so do I. If he thinks "vibration, sound, and heating" are significant, he needs to modify his paper. He won't though, because it's absurd to think that "vibration, sound, and heating" can cause any significant sink in energy. It's almost always completely neglected in engineering calculations because it's so tiny.

It's just a red herring.

At first glance I would agree, as I wouldn't think the vibration, heat, and sound sink all that much energy either. However, I do think that if any somewhat simple calculation is possible that it should be done to show it by both yourself and Ross.
 
At first glance I would agree, as I wouldn't think the vibration, heat, and sound sink all that much energy either. However, I do think that if any somewhat simple calculation is possible that it should be done to show it by both yourself and Ross.

If it's simple, you should attempt it! It's not by specialty though.
 
Show me the paper. Only hearsay source say 607 mph, they got it from looking it up at Boeing and just putting it without thinking. Standard newspaper errors. Only a pilot/engineer would catch the error.

You are caught with an error and I have given you the lead engineer, Robertson saying and writing it out. Slow speed. I have also given you my experience why the speed is a good design parameter for the likely threat; and I do not doubt if you would listen to me, you could say it better.

There was a design study on a slow speed aircraft impact. The people who heard about it substituted the 607 mph by mistake in the reports and news sources. How did they get the number, they did what you did. They went to Boeing and produce the speed listed, 607 mph. I have told you over and over, that is a good speed at 29000 feet, not at 1300. The design was for the most likely aircraft accident possible. I have listed why it is the most likely scenario.

Well said and thought out. To borrow a phrase "Case Closed"
 
Even if the towers were built to take a 707 at 600mph, why do truthers act as if this therefor means there must have been a demolition?

The Titanic was built to be unsinkable. So....it didn't sink? There were bombs in the hull?

Newsflash to truthers: sometimes things don't work out the way they were designed to. That's the way life is.
 
However, I do think that if any somewhat simple calculation is possible that it should be done to show it by both yourself and Ross.

If you knew physics like you claim you do, you would have never written this statement. This is very telling of your level of understanding in this area.
 
If you knew physics like you claim you do, you would have never written this statement. This is very telling of your level of understanding in this area.


Really! In making the statement you make, I have to wonder if you do engineering calculations for a living. I do and there are many cases where I have been able to quickly show in a rough order of magnitude way that something is negligible and that it is not necessary to go into any more detail. I was wondering if there was a way here. That is all. It has been my experience that sometimes one doesn't realize it until they look at the problem.

It sounds like you don't believe that has any chance of happening with this area. If that is true, do you care to expound on why not?
 
Well said and thought out. To borrow a phrase "Case Closed"

No, the February 3, 1964 white paper, which describes the analysis done for an impact of a fully loaded 707 moving at 600 mph into the towers, is mentioned in the NIST report. The white paper exists and apparently NIST has seen it as they don't mention that it was hearsay. It seems they would have if they hadn't seen it since they do say they can't find the actual analysis, the findings of which the white paper describes.
 
But...but...the towers did withstand the impacts. Your point, realcddeal?
 
peer review says, REDO (pay attention, "SLOW SPEED")

No, the February 3, 1964 white paper, which describes the analysis done for an impact of a fully loaded 707 moving at 600 mph into the towers, is mentioned in the NIST report. The white paper exists and apparently NIST has seen it as they don't mention that it was hearsay. It seems they would have if they hadn't seen it since they do say they can't find the actual analysis, the findings of which the white paper describes.
You would be a dork if you used a speed the 707 can not do at 1300 feet.

If you did the design at 600 mph you would have a building that did not fall. But since the impacts on 9/11 were ten times bigger than the slow speed impact study for the design, you are still wrong.

I have looked at your paper and it is full of errors. Chuck full of errors. Did you do that on purpose?

Let me remind you and the people you try to mislead!

The lead structural engineer -
Leslie E. Robertson, "... our design (a slow-flying Boeing 707 lost in the fog and seeking a landing field). ... "
Written by Robertson, oops, he is the source, he built the towers.

Everyone, Robertson said it was slow speed, not 600 mph and he built the WTC Towers! First hand, not hearsay of realcddeal, but the real deal from THE MAN!

YOU been peer reviewed! REDO

Looks like NIST got something wrong. Too bad for you as you try to back in your sorry sources. (you can not produce the white paper, that would be the calculations silly. The design was done for a slow speed landing plane, lost in the fog. Please explain why you messed up this simple thing. OH, I have a masters degree and actually really made decision that lives depended on. This could be why my research is more complete than your ERROR ridden tripe. You may not have a job if someone ever sees your paper full of errors.)

But your paper is still wrong. I have to go with the lead engineer on this one. Plus as I said the 707 can not go 600 mph at 1300 feet. Why are you learning challenged?
 
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But your paper is still wrong. I have to go with the lead engineer on this one. Plus as I said the 707 can not go 600 mph at 1300 feet. Why are you learning challenged?

I think their point is, that the towers were overdesigned to withstand an impact even up to 600mph, even if this speed is not physically possible for a 707. I have heard this one before. It is not exactly known what is the origin of this claim, was it exaggeration to calm down the critics, or were there actual calculations to prove it. Calculations have never been found.

Needless to say, the towers did withstand the plane impacts. So there is no point the truthers can make. In the 1993 interview, Skilling did not mention the speed of the aircraft.

As for the lead engineer, I would still say it is hard to say who it was. Skilling had his name even in the company name. He was known. I don't know, if it's known what the division of tasks between these two engineers was. But it makes no difference. We all saw what happened.
 
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The engineer of record for the towers was Les Robertson.
 
The engineer of record for the towers was Les Robertson.

What that means, for people who don't speak engineer, is that he was the "stuckee" on the design. Whether he did 99% of the design work or 1%, he's the one who certified that the structure met all safety and code requirements.

And that includes any requirement, government-imposed or customer-specified, about aircraft impact.

Leslie Robertson was the guy who stuck his neck and his license out, and signed on the dotted line that it met all the specs. That's what it means. It also means that nobody would know, better than him, what those requirements actually were.

Having reviewed the design and the cause of their destruction, it did indeed meet all the specs. The carnage would have been far, far worse if the Towers hadn't stood as long as they did. EOS.
 

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