Pearl Harbor...

[Malachi151]

I wasn't going to post here anymore, but this is too good to pass up, one last poke at the hornet's nest I guess

Check it out:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/fdr_provoked_the_japanese_attack.htm

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/roosevelt_death.htm

I haven't gotten the whole booklet on the web yet, the rest will follow later.

 

[Crossbow]

Well, at the risk of sounding patronizing, maybe when you found out how upset Japan was when Roosevelt ordered the USA to stop selling Japan oil, scrap metal, and other items in retaliation for the war they were waging against China as well as how disturbed they were when the USA moved the Pacific fleet from San Diego to Pearl Harbor is new data to you, but I have known about it for many years.

In fact, if you read through the Japanese Declaration of War that they issued, you will see that they were laying the blame for the war entirely at the feet of the USA.

When war starts, the nations involved always blame the other for starting it. Just look to how the USA blamed Iraq for the recent war if you need a recent example of the practice at work.

 

[richardm]

When war starts, the nations involved always blame the other for starting it. Just look to how the USA blamed Iraq for the recent war if you need a recent example of the practice at work.

Hm, interesting point. Who did Germany blame for WW2? Did they see the invasion of Poland as a declaration of war? Could look it up myself, but I bet someone knows of the top of their head.

 

[Doubt]

Hm, interesting point. Who did Germany blame for WW2? Did they see the invasion of Poland as a declaration of war? Could look it up myself, but I bet someone knows of the top of their head.

The Germans claimed Poland did launch raids against it prior to the invasion. I don't know much about the following site, but the start of this page matches other sources I have seen in the past:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca-02/nca-02-15-criminality-06-05.html

Prior to the invasion of Poland by Germany, "border incidents" were fabricated by the GESTAPO and SD for the purpose of furnishing Hitler with an excuse to wage war. (2751-PS)

Early in August, 1939, the plan was conceived by the Chief of the Security Police and SD, Heydrich, to stage simulated border raids by personnel of the GESTAPO and SD dressed as Poles. To add authenticity, it was planned to take certain prisoners from concentration camps, kill them by use of hypodermic injections, and leave their bodies, clad in Polish uniforms, at the various places where the incidents were planned to occur. The Chief of the GESTAPO, Mueller, took a directing hand in these actions, which were staged on 31 August 1939 in Beuthen, Hindenburg, Gleiwitz, and elsewhere.

 

[MRC_Hans]

There are different issues here.

First: Did the US (FDR) provoke a war with Japan? Well, if they did NOT want a war, they were certainly playing at high stakes. The best guess I have read is that they hoped for one of two things to happen:

1) Japan would roll over on her back and ask for mercy. (even with their limited understanding of Japanese culture, they must have known that was bIoody unlikely)

2) Japan would either declare war or do something that gave the US an excuse to do it. (as it happened, both of those came true)

The reasons for wanting a war with Japan were several:

- The Japanese had made a real nuisance of themselves in the far east, and were now threatening oil interests (sounds familiar? ) .

- FDR wanted political backup to go to war with Germany. (Hitler dutifully complied and declared war).

- The US severely underestimated the power of Japan, more or less imagining that she would be a pushover.

Second issue: Did FDR (or the govt) know that the Japanese were going to attack PH, and did not tell about it?

That is very unlikely. Even if you think nothing of their morality (or fear of being disclosed), doing so would be extremely stupid, from a military POV. All they needed was a single shot fired in anger from the Japanese, a single bomb dropped on American soil, no reason to hand them a victory. As it happened, they had sent the aircraft carriers on a drill. This almost made the Japanese call off the attack. Had the US top expected the attack, they would have sent a more mixed force out, placed decoys in the harbour, and kept everybody on red alert, if discretely. In that way they would have had their Japanese attack, and been able to start the show by giving them a sever beating in return. Which would have ensured a declaration of war from Tokio.

U R leaving Malachi? Bon voyage!

Hans

 

[Crossbow]

Hm, interesting point. Who did Germany blame for WW2? Did they see the invasion of Poland as a declaration of war? Could look it up myself, but I bet someone knows of the top of their head.

Germany blamed everyone else for the war.

The Slavs,
The Communists,
The French, and of course
The Jews!

Just to echo a previous point, shortly before the German invasion of Poland, the Germans managed to stage a Polish attack on a small German town and radio station that was near the border. Then the Germans used this so-called 'attack' to justify their invasion of Poland.

Ugh!

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

The setting for the US entering WWII in both Asia and Europe is so rife with intrigue ala American isolationism, false declarations from Churchill,The perceived unwillingness by the Germans of the US to goto war ( why does that ring a bell?...April Gillespie ) , the perceived hegemony of the US by Japan, thier lack of resources as an island nation, internal pressures on the Emperror to goto war by the Japaneese military, His tenuous position vis-a-vie the military complex, Japan's war w/ China, our covert involvement ( flying tigers and shipments of material ) in aid to China........

The complexity of the historical analysis of the inertia that led to global war would make a PHD candidate in the field of history swoon. This isn't a topic that can be reduced to any sound bite or cliche'.

My father was a 90 day wonder ( name given to collage boys who were fast tracked through the Officer Corps) won a silver star , two bronze stars /w clusters and 2 purple hearts, retired a bird Colonel He was also an avid historian. He taught me the common take on the reasons for the war were shallow and were propagandistic. I , still believe, his view.

 

[Mike B.]

Hm, interesting point. Who did Germany blame for WW2? Did they see the invasion of Poland as a declaration of war? Could look it up myself, but I bet someone knows of the top of their head.

I remember an interesting cartoon in "Signal" which was the periodical of occupied Europe.

There is a bloody Polish soldier surveying the destruction of his country and screaming at Neville Chamberlin, "English this is your fault!!!"

I suppose blaming the UK for the guarantee of Poland's borders which made the Poles resist rather than rolling over and dying...

Hey, who said these things had to be logical?

 

[Malachi151]

There are different issues here.

First: Did the US (FDR) provoke a war with Japan? Well, if they did NOT want a war, they were certainly playing at high stakes. The best guess I have read is that they hoped for one of two things to happen:

1) Japan would roll over on her back and ask for mercy. (even with their limited understanding of Japanese culture, they must have known that was bIoody unlikely)

2) Japan would either declare war or do something that gave the US an excuse to do it. (as it happened, both of those came true)

The reasons for wanting a war with Japan were several:

- The Japanese had made a real nuisance of themselves in the far east, and were now threatening oil interests (sounds familiar? ) .

- FDR wanted political backup to go to war with Germany. (Hitler dutifully complied and declared war).

- The US severely underestimated the power of Japan, more or less imagining that she would be a pushover.

Second issue: Did FDR (or the govt) know that the Japanese were going to attack PH, and did not tell about it?

That is very unlikely. Even if you think nothing of their morality (or fear of being disclosed), doing so would be extremely stupid, from a military POV. All they needed was a single shot fired in anger from the Japanese, a single bomb dropped on American soil, no reason to hand them a victory. As it happened, they had sent the aircraft carriers on a drill. This almost made the Japanese call off the attack. Had the US top expected the attack, they would have sent a more mixed force out, placed decoys in the harbour, and kept everybody on red alert, if discretely. In that way they would have had their Japanese attack, and been able to start the show by giving them a sever beating in return. Which would have ensured a declaration of war from Tokio.

U R leaving Malachi? Bon voyage!

Hans

Did you go to the link, or did you just decide to cut and paste from my website? You said basically the same thing I said.

 

[no one in particular]

Greetings, Malachi.

It has been a while since I last teased you. Now that you are threatening to leave this forum, I thought I would post some comments.

You have done quite a good job of fleshing out your website since you first started posting here. I had not visited it since it was just your one-page manifesto and was quite surprised to see that you now had pretty links and pictures and such. Anyway, (and, not that this relates to the topic at hand, but) while perusing your web site I found the following posted on your feedback page by "Gulag fan." I thought it was especially entertaining.

Specious hogwash of this sort is just an example of how one shouldn't believe what they read on the internet, unless of course you want to be stupid and fit in with stupid people who fancy themselves intelligent. change the domain name to anotherbulls**tmaniarevolution.net and maybe it would be entertaining.

Anyway, sorry to be so off-topic and I hope you decide to stick around.

-n

 

[Luke T.]

Okay. Let me see if I have this straight. Japan, Germany and Italy are wreaking havoc all over the world.

Japan is busy raping Nanking and the rest of China and the Pacific, and the U.S. is supposed to sit idly by and wait its turn? Not only that, but provide Japan with the necessary raw materials to do it?

No, of course not. We took precautionary measures, and told Japan to go stuff themselves when they asked for oil for their war machine. And this is a provocation? Only in the mind of an idiot.

Nothing on those links is news. It wasn't "hidden" or "secret." It was in all the papers. Everybody knew what was going on. But people like Charles "Call me Malachi" Lindbergh wanted to stuff their heads in the sand and pretend it would go away if we wished hard enough. So maybe it was news to them years later, but everybody else was clued in.

 

[Luke T.]

There is more educational information in the movie Tora! Tora! Tora! than in the two links in the opening post...

 

[WildCat]

Actually, Malachi, Japan was quite busy in that time trying to create their "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere". This entailed all Asian Pacific Rim countries being controlled and occupied by Imperial Japan. Yes, Malachi - Imperial!! You rail on about Western Imperialists quite often here, why is it OK for Japan to have imperialist ambitions? And not OK for the US to stop them?

As far as the US thinking Japan would be a pushover, quite the opposite was true. By bombing Pearl Harbor Japan hoped not to draw the US into a war, but to intimidate the US into abandoning all it's interests in Asia, allowing Japan to seize rubber and oil in Malaysia. The US at the time was ill-prepared for war, and fared poorly early on (Wake Island, Phillippines).

You really should read some credible books on the matter.

 

[Malachi151]

This is why I decided its senseless to post here, none of you even have reading comprehension skills

 

[Grammatron]

This is why I decided its senseless to post here, none of you even have reading comprehension skills

I am sure that looking to wonderful woo-woo sites like "whatreallyhappened.com" is one way to appear credible, the other would be to insult everyone who offers opinion on the topic your brought up.

 

[WildCat]

This is why I decided its senseless to post here, none of you even have reading comprehension skills

I think this says it better.

 

[Crossbow]

In regards to what the USA knew about Japan's intentions prior to the Pearl Harbor attack:
the USA was sure that sooner or later there would be a war with Japan,
the USA was pretty sure that Japan would make the first move,
these suspicions were confirmed when the USA intercepted and de-crypted the 14 part message that was sent to the Japanese embassy in Washington, D.C. which had instructions to destroy all confidential papers and coding machines (a sure sign that war is about to happen).

However, no one really had much of an idea of just where Japan would make their first strike.

Most expected them to move against the US forces in the Philippines first, but instead Japan surprised everyone by attacking the US forces in Hawaii first, then going after the forces in the Philippines.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Did you go to the link, or did you just decide to cut and paste from my website? You said basically the same thing I said.

Is that your website? Yeah, I see some similarity with what I wrote. So it seems we agree. How are you gonna handle that?

Hans

 

[davefoc]

Malachi, I just wanted to say up front, I didn't read your links. I have in the past read your links. They are often long and it is difficult to figure out what they have to do with the topic at hand. But I have often struggled thru them out of a sense of fairness by trying to understand what point you were making.

Still, it will be a little sad to see you go. There was nobody else here who I thought was so consistently wrong about just about everything. But even that was not quite absolute. There was a day a month or so ago where I found that on two different topics I agreed wtih your posts. That was pretty much the only time that I can remember being in agreement with you and now the I have forgotten the subject of those posts. But you can take solace in knowing that at least twice in your stay here at JREF that you were right.

Best Regards and good luck on your JREFless future,
Dave

 

[Luke T.]

Malachi, you have a serious problem with posting links and then not explaining what you are on about, and then getting upset when we attempt to guess. This is JREF. If one thing should be clear, it is that we don't believe in mind reading.