Pearl Harbor and 9/11

Alareth said:
Japan was in Imperialist expansion mode and at some point that would have brought them into direct conflict with the US. They just decided to get it over with before they spread thems too thin.

As to the US knowing that Japan was going to attack, well yes, they did. Just not in the manner the CT's like to claim. My favorite account of US foreknowledge is the first chapter of "The Codebreakers" by David Kahn
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The thing people forget, the Japanese themselves were unsure which way to take the war. Many wanted to go West and take out the back end of Russia, it was only the Armys flat refusual to follow this course of action that brought the country into conflict with the US

And yes the Americans where well aware that a fleet had gotten underway, they just didn't know exactly where they were going
 
MG1962 said:
The thing people forget, the Japanese themselves were unsure which way to take the war. Many wanted to go West and take out the back end of Russia, it was only the Armys flat refusual to follow this course of action that brought the country into conflict with the US
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The army did have good reason to be hesitant about attacking Russia — the Japanese knew from first hand experience in 1939 that the Russians could be very tough opponents, something that it took the Germans awhile to learn.
 
Corsair 115 said:
The army did have good reason to be hesitant about attacking Russia — the Japanese knew from first hand experience in 1939 that the Russians could be very tough opponents, something that it took the Germans awhile to learn.
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Absolutely - no disagreement with you - I was more making the observation than a judgement. But for a simple choice, Pearl harbour would not have happened and the whole war would have played very differently. Something conspiracy theorist refuse to believe
 
Corsair 115 said:
The army did have good reason to be hesitant about attacking Russia — the Japanese knew from first hand experience in 1939 that the Russians could be very tough opponents, something that it took the Germans awhile to learn.
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It took the Germans a while to learn because they were kicking the Soviet's butts across the Urals and back to Moscow. Had Hitler been a bit smarter, and taken the undefended Moscow and set up there over the Winter before going south to take the oil field, the Eastern Front might have been a totally different story. Instead because he turned his forces south to the oil fields, it gave time for the Soviets to regroup in Moscow and they were able to stop the German's advance long enough for winter to arrive. That is what dealt the death blow to the Nazi's Eastern war. With their men and vehicles caught out in the Russian countryside during the winter, they froze. Tanks were inoperatable, men were frozen, weapons malfunctioned and the Soviets were able to recall their Siberian forces who were used to fighting in the extreme cold, forcing the German retreat. With the lines broken, supply lines frozens, the Germans had to abandon their vehicles and flee causing the crumbling of the entire Eastern front, and eventually the loss of the war.
 
MG1962 said:
The thing people forget, the Japanese themselves were unsure which way to take the war. Many wanted to go West and take out the back end of Russia, it was only the Armys flat refusual to follow this course of action that brought the country into conflict with the US

And yes the Americans where well aware that a fleet had gotten underway, they just didn't know exactly where they were going
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Personally I think the Japanese wanted the Germans to think that they would attack Russia, in return for Hitler declaring war on the US. With the Japanese striking first, the Germans were under no obligation to help, but with the prospect of drawing Stalin's troops back to Siberia the Eastern European front would be easier.
 
CptColumbo said:
Personally I think the Japanese wanted the Germans to think that they would attack Russia, in return for Hitler declaring war on the US. With the Japanese striking first, the Germans were under no obligation to help, but with the prospect of drawing Stalin's troops back to Siberia the Eastern European front would be easier.
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The Germans really needed the Japanese to attack the Soviets, spliting them between the two fronts. The lasdt thing Germany wanted was a strong ally coming to Britian's aide, and once Japan attacked the US, the Soviets realised that they could mobilize their Siberian forces back to Moscow, a move that proved decisive in the bitter cold of the Russian winter. With those specially trained trooper hitting the frozen German lines, it was never going to be anything but a bloodbath. Pearl Habor was in many ways the turning point of both wars as it brought the US into the Pacific whee the Japanese really had been unchallenged until then, added their strength to European forces on the Western front, and allowed the Soviets to reinforce their troops on the Eastern. Germany was screwed at that point, and Japan was never going to hold out against the full strength of the Allies once Germany was done.
 
PhantomWolf said:
The Germans really needed the Japanese to attack the Soviets, spliting them between the two fronts. The lasdt thing Germany wanted was a strong ally coming to Britian's aide, and once Japan attacked the US, the Soviets realised that they could mobilize their Siberian forces back to Moscow, a move that proved decisive in the bitter cold of the Russian winter. With those specially trained trooper hitting the frozen German lines, it was never going to be anything but a bloodbath. Pearl Habor was in many ways the turning point of both wars as it brought the US into the Pacific whee the Japanese really had been unchallenged until then, added their strength to European forces on the Western front, and allowed the Soviets to reinforce their troops on the Eastern. Germany was screwed at that point, and Japan was never going to hold out against the full strength of the Allies once Germany was done.
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I was watching an excellent documentary about this whole situation recently, till then I didn't realise the magnitude of the decision of the Japanese not to attack. I think ultimately the Soviets would have held on long enough to turn the supply situation around, but I fear the war would have produced casualty figures that dwarfed what ultimately occured
 
There was (still is? hope not) a rather limp theory that Eisenhower had George Patton killed because Patton was shooting his mouth off too loudly in favor of war with the Russians. As we all know -- well, those of us old enough to remember -- Eisenhower was a tool of the Red conspiracy, so you can see how he'd want a great patriot like Georgie silenced. Traffic accident my aching ash!

And Custer was clearly a false-flag op. Wall Street and the Bank of England (we know who runs them!) lusted for the Western lands so they could expand their railroads and the suspiciously generous rights-of-way that came with them. Who better than George (another military George, take note) to bamboozle into a foolish battle? And don't forget: the Indians were the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel! Kinda falls into place, eh? I mean, just look at their noses!

Pearl Harbor and that Joo Bastard Roosenvelt? Old stuff! Makes yer aryan blood boil, don't it?

Buy me a drink every quarter-hour and I can keep this up all night.
 
PhantomWolf said:
It took the Germans a while to learn because they were kicking the Soviet's butts across the Urals and back to Moscow. Had Hitler been a bit smarter, and taken the undefended Moscow and set up there over the Winter before going south to take the oil field, the Eastern Front might have been a totally different story.
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Certainly lots of possible outcomes for Barbarossa exist; some of them can easily include the Russians doing much better initially than was the actual case.

There were plenty of reasons for the Russians' poor performance against the Germans early on — the main point is that, overall, Russia was not the pushover that Hitler thought it would be. Japan knew that from their battles against the Russians in 1939. Any nation which had up to 35 million men of military age available, any nation which had the capacity to outproduce its attacker 5 to 1 in armoured vehicles, is an opponent to be taken very seriously.

The German military leadership seriously underestimated the Russians from the start. Considering that the German Army attacked Russia with only 15 more divisions and about 30% more tanks than they had used in the assault westwards in May of 1940, in spite of the land area involved being twenty times the size, begins to illustrate the degree to which the German military leadership did not take Russia as a serious foe. Add in the unimpressive German logistical capacity, having far too few trucks to support its assault forcing it to rely on rebuilding the Russian railway network as the advance progressed, and the prospect for long-term success in Russia begins to look bleak.
 
An interesting little sidelight on Pearl: Some of the Japanese pilots who flew in the attack were angered to learn later that there had been no declaration of war. They felt that their honor had been dirtied. I agree.

Parallels between Pearl Harbour and September 11 aren't very close. Say what you will about them and their cause, the Japanese came on like men.
 
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