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PEAK OIL: Going Mainstream

As I said above, if we can eliminate or reduce to manageable proportions the side effects, why should we reduce our energy consumption?

Energy allows us to do things. Doing things uses other resources besides energy, resources which we are also depleting at an exponential rate. Demand for energy is now exponential.

A century of cheap energy has enabled wondrous technological advances and , in a tiny blip of geological time, brought about the sixth mass extinction of life on Earth. Too much energy may be as disastrous for the environment as too much money is for the economy.
 
I have. The answer? No.

But what would your idea of a lower-energy world be like?

Prosperity without growth.

Currently we use enormous amounts of energy to produce more and more things, most of which are quickly discarded. Producing more and more of these things is seen as a sign of a healthy economy.
 
I'm kind of lazy so I'm not going to bother with the whole peak uranium nonsense.

Instead I'd like to comment on fast reactors, because there are some fundamental facts that seem to be ignored or left out of the debate in this thread so far.

The equilibrium distribution of transuranic elements in thermal and fast reactors is approximately as follows(warning, hideous formating ahead):

Isotope Thermal Fast
Np-237 ; 5.51 ; 0.75
Pu-238 ; 4.17 ; 0.89
Pu-239 ; 23.03 ; 66.75
Pu-240 ; 10.49 ; 24.48
Pu-241 ; 9.48 ; 2.98
Pu-242 ; 3.89 ; 1.86
Am-241 ; 0.54 ; 0.97
Am-242m; 0.02 ; 0.07
Am-243 ; 8.11 ; 0.44
Cm-242 ; 0.18 ; 0.40
Cm-243 ; 0.02 ; 0.03
Cm-244 ; 17.85 ; 0.28
Cm-245 ; 1.27 ; 0.07
Cm-246 ; 11.71 ; 0.03
Cm-247 ; 0.75 ; 2.E-3
Cm-248 ; 2.77 ; 6.E-4
Bk-249 ; 0.05 ; 1 .E-5
Cf-249 ; 0.03 ; 4.E-5
Cf-250 ; 0.03 ; 7.E-6
Cf-251 ; 0.02 ; 9.E-7
Cf-252 ; 0.08 ; 4.E-8

Source: http://www.osti.gov/bridge/purl.cov...44DC01B6BC7A?purl=/459313-d9NYz8/webviewable/

Thermal reactors cannot be breeders for the U-Pu fuel cycle for the reason that the ratio between capture cross-section and fission cross is too low. You waste far too many neutrons transmuting Pu-239 into all these higher isotopes. That's why multi-recycle of plutonium in LWRs degrades the plutonium into a form that's not even suitable for LWRs anymore.

In a fast reactor the Pu-239 still has a decent chance at capturing a neutron but Pu-240 tends to fission most of the time so you don't get that much other stuff.

Weapons grade plutonium is >93% Pu-239, with the rest being mostly Pu-240 and a little bit of Pu-241. When you subject U-238 to neutrons you first get U-239, which beta decays to Np-239, which beta decays to Pu-239. As the concentration of Pu-239 builds up the ratio of Pu-239 to U-238 atoms increases, increasing the odds that a neutron will either fission or transmute Pu-239 into undesirable isotopes of plutonium. If the U-238 is in the fuel elements rather than some breeding blanket the U-235 can also be transmuted into an expecially undesirable isotopes, Pu-238, the stuff they use as a heat source in space probes.

In both cases the quality of the plutonium is very far from weapons grade when you approach equilibrium conditions. In a thermal reactor it is enough that the fuel spends a handful of months inside the reactor for the quality of the plutonium to be sufficiently degraded to not be desirable in weapons. Producing weapons grade plutonium in an LWR produces a very suspicious pattern of ~10 times higher fuel demands than normal(because you're taking it out, chopping it up and disolving it in nitric acid long before the fuel has been used up) and extremely frequent refueling outages visible to inspectors and spy satellites looking at smoke comming out of your cooling towers.

In an IFR, S-PRISM or BN-600 style fast-reactor you have a fuel region and a breeding blanket region. The blanket contains mostly U-238; its purpose is to make sure that neutrons that leak from the fuel region of the core get put to use producing more Pu-239 rather than going wasted. This is necessary if you want a breeding ratio significantly above 1.

The plutonium in the fuel region of the reactor is going to come from spent fuel from thermal reactors, which is already far below weapons grade and will move towards the equilibrium isotopic distribution over time.

The plutonium being bred in the blanket could be of weapons quality; that depends on how long the blanket stays in the reactor before being switched out and reprocessed.

In the integral fast reactor design the reprocessing would be integrated such that you don't need to move any fuel or blanket material off-site for reprocessing. The reactor is designed so that the breeding blanket can be replaced in whole or in parts with neutron-reflecting steel pins allowing the breeding ratio to be adjusted from less than one all the way up to ~1.25; that way you can choose to destroy transuranics with a breeding ratio of less than 1, produce more reactor grade plutonium for starting up more IFRs or produce only as much as you need to be self-sustaining as long as feed more U-238(so that no plutonium-bearing material ever leaves the site apart from small amounts that end up in the vitrified fission product waste). Even if the reactor is operated with frequent enough blanket replacement that weapons grade plutonium could be obtained from the blanket the integrated reprocessing regime and its safeguards are intended to make it difficult to divert material; and once the blanket and fuel materials are mixed up during reprocessing the plutonium quality will be uniformly poor as far as weapons are concerned.

The method of reprocessing in the also chosen to never separate out pure plutonium. This is done in order that even if someone managed to steal the reprocessed material it would be significantly radioactive and would require further reprocessing to even try to make a nuclear explosive(it is not unreasonable to expect a fizzle from an implosion weapon in the 100 tonne to 1 kT of TNT range. Low and unreliable yield and poor shelf-life is a deal-breaker for a nation-state but not for hypothetical terrorists sophisticated enough to build a working implosion device).

If a breeding ratio as low as ~1.05(theoretical value for the lead cooled BREST reactor) is acceptable it is possible to do away with the breeding blanket altoghether such that no weapons-grade plutonium is produced.

The problem with fast reactors is that the specific fissile inventory is too high for rapid deployment; at 12 tonnes of reactor grade plutonium per GW for the S-PRISM the ~50 000 tonnes of spent fuel for the entire US fleet of LWRs is enough to start just 40 GW. The doubling time is very roughly 30 years(this is my back of the envelope estimate given a breeding ratio of 1.25, a specific fissile inventory of 12 tonnes per GW and 190 MeV released per fission) so there's not much relief from that side either.

It is possible to start fast reactors on U-235(fresh fuel) instead of reactor-grade plutonium. Then you need ~2000-2400 tonnes natural uranium per GW of reactor started(DU tails contain 0.1-0.2% of U-235). If you went after the currently known ~4.5 million tonnes of uranium available at <$130 kg with war-like efficiency to start up S-PRISM reactors you'd get 1.9-2.3 TW of installed capacity. That's not enough, you'd still need a couple of doublings to get where you want to be.

Thermal breeder reactors can do much better. They can't attain the same high breeding ratios as fast-reactors, but still slightly above 1, and they they can't operate on the U-238/Pu-239 fuel cycle; but they have much lower specific inventory(~1000-2000 kg per GW depending on size and design) and rely instead on the Thorium-232/U-233 fuel cycle. In order to achieve breeding in the thermal spectrum you need to keep removing neutron-hogging fission products very quickly; the way to do this is to have the fuel remain liquid so that reprocessing is quick and easy. The molten salt reactor concept was first developed at ORNL, an offspin of tiny high temperature reactors intended for the Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion program. Because the fuel is a molten salt it can be operated at a high temperature(temperature is limited by corrosion concerns in the reactor walls).

It would be best to start them on U-233 obtained by some other means(e.g. see the Indian nuclear programme), but failing that they can be started on U-235 or plutonium, with plutonium being least preferable.

If you want to start them on highly enriched uranium or plutonium I believe you'd want to have a small dedicated fleet of molten salt reactors in a secure location in a nuclear weapons-state in order to avoid proliferation concern. They'd chew through U-235 and plutonium and spit out U-233 that can be used to start 'clean' molten salt reactors elsewhere.

Once operating on U-233 they are proliferation resistant; U-233 was never persued for nuclear weapons because neutron knock-off reactions(i.e. (n, 2n)-reactions) produce U-232 which is a strong gamma emitter that makes the production, storage and handling of bombs difficult and messes with the electronics of the device. Pu-239 is also a better fuel for a nuclear primary than either of U-235 and U-233; in a fast spectrum it produces ~0.5 more neutrons per fission which means the reaction take off faster and the inertial confinement does not need to be as good(small warheads are highly prized).

I'm note sure what combination you'd want for the fastest scaling up of nuclear energy but I think you'd want higher rates of uranium mining, continued expansion of light water reactors for a few more decades before tapering off, fast breeder reactors to soak up the entire inventory of reactor grade plutonium and minor actinides from spent LWR fuel, molten salt breeder reactors started from U-233 produced by surplus neutrons in fast reactors(I would prefer to scale MSRs faster at the expense of fast-breeder reactors, they appear to be cheaper and provide better passive safety).
 
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If you want to start them on highly enriched uranium or plutonium I believe you'd want to have a small dedicated fleet of molten salt reactors in a secure location in a nuclear weapons-state in order to avoid proliferation concern.


Do you have any particular nuclear weapons-states in mind?
 
"The U.S. Department of Energy admits that 'a chance exists that we may experience a decline' of world liquid fuels production between 2011 and 2015 “if the investment is not there”, according to an exclusive interview with Glen Sweetnam, main official expert on oil market in the Obama administration.

This warning on oil output issued by Obama’s energy administration comes at a time when world demand for oil is on the rise again, and investments in many drilling projects have been frozen in the aftermath of the tumbling of crude prices and of the financial crisis."


Washington considers a decline of world oil production as of 2011
 
I'm kind of lazy so I'm not going to bother with the whole peak uranium nonsense.

Instead I'd like to comment on fast reactors, because there are some fundamental facts that seem to be ignored or left out of the debate in this thread so far.

The equilibrium distribution of transuranic elements in thermal and fast reactors is approximately as follows(warning, hideous formating ahead):

Isotope Thermal Fast
Np-237 ; 5.51 ; 0.75
Pu-238 ; 4.17 ; 0.89
Pu-239 ; 23.03 ; 66.75
Pu-240 ; 10.49 ; 24.48
Pu-241 ; 9.48 ; 2.98
Pu-242 ; 3.89 ; 1.86
Am-241 ; 0.54 ; 0.97
Am-242m; 0.02 ; 0.07
Am-243 ; 8.11 ; 0.44
Cm-242 ; 0.18 ; 0.40
Cm-243 ; 0.02 ; 0.03
Cm-244 ; 17.85 ; 0.28
Cm-245 ; 1.27 ; 0.07
Cm-246 ; 11.71 ; 0.03
Cm-247 ; 0.75 ; 2.E-3
Cm-248 ; 2.77 ; 6.E-4
Bk-249 ; 0.05 ; 1 .E-5
Cf-249 ; 0.03 ; 4.E-5
Cf-250 ; 0.03 ; 7.E-6
Cf-251 ; 0.02 ; 9.E-7
Cf-252 ; 0.08 ; 4.E-8

Source: http://www.osti.gov/bridge/purl.cov...44DC01B6BC7A?purl=/459313-d9NYz8/webviewable/

Thermal reactors cannot be breeders for the U-Pu fuel cycle for the reason that the ratio between capture cross-section and fission cross is too low. You waste far too many neutrons transmuting Pu-239 into all these higher isotopes. That's why multi-recycle of plutonium in LWRs degrades the plutonium into a form that's not even suitable for LWRs anymore.

In a fast reactor the Pu-239 still has a decent chance at capturing a neutron but Pu-240 tends to fission most of the time so you don't get that much other stuff.

Weapons grade plutonium is >93% Pu-239, with the rest being mostly Pu-240 and a little bit of Pu-241. When you subject U-238 to neutrons you first get U-239, which beta decays to Np-239, which beta decays to Pu-239. As the concentration of Pu-239 builds up the ratio of Pu-239 to U-238 atoms increases, increasing the odds that a neutron will either fission or transmute Pu-239 into undesirable isotopes of plutonium. If the U-238 is in the fuel elements rather than some breeding blanket the U-235 can also be transmuted into an expecially undesirable isotopes, Pu-238, the stuff they use as a heat source in space probes.

In both cases the quality of the plutonium is very far from weapons grade when you approach equilibrium conditions. In a thermal reactor it is enough that the fuel spends a handful of months inside the reactor for the quality of the plutonium to be sufficiently degraded to not be desirable in weapons. Producing weapons grade plutonium in an LWR produces a very suspicious pattern of ~10 times higher fuel demands than normal(because you're taking it out, chopping it up and disolving it in nitric acid long before the fuel has been used up) and extremely frequent refueling outages visible to inspectors and spy satellites looking at smoke comming out of your cooling towers.

In an IFR, S-PRISM or BN-600 style fast-reactor you have a fuel region and a breeding blanket region. The blanket contains mostly U-238; its purpose is to make sure that neutrons that leak from the fuel region of the core get put to use producing more Pu-239 rather than going wasted. This is necessary if you want a breeding ratio significantly above 1.

The plutonium in the fuel region of the reactor is going to come from spent fuel from thermal reactors, which is already far below weapons grade and will move towards the equilibrium isotopic distribution over time.

The plutonium being bred in the blanket could be of weapons quality; that depends on how long the blanket stays in the reactor before being switched out and reprocessed.

In the integral fast reactor design the reprocessing would be integrated such that you don't need to move any fuel or blanket material off-site for reprocessing. The reactor is designed so that the breeding blanket can be replaced in whole or in parts with neutron-reflecting steel pins allowing the breeding ratio to be adjusted from less than one all the way up to ~1.25; that way you can choose to destroy transuranics with a breeding ratio of less than 1, produce more reactor grade plutonium for starting up more IFRs or produce only as much as you need to be self-sustaining as long as feed more U-238(so that no plutonium-bearing material ever leaves the site apart from small amounts that end up in the vitrified fission product waste). Even if the reactor is operated with frequent enough blanket replacement that weapons grade plutonium could be obtained from the blanket the integrated reprocessing regime and its safeguards are intended to make it difficult to divert material; and once the blanket and fuel materials are mixed up during reprocessing the plutonium quality will be uniformly poor as far as weapons are concerned.

The method of reprocessing in the also chosen to never separate out pure plutonium. This is done in order that even if someone managed to steal the reprocessed material it would be significantly radioactive and would require further reprocessing to even try to make a nuclear explosive(it is not unreasonable to expect a fizzle from an implosion weapon in the 100 tonne to 1 kT of TNT range. Low and unreliable yield and poor shelf-life is a deal-breaker for a nation-state but not for hypothetical terrorists sophisticated enough to build a working implosion device).

If a breeding ratio as low as ~1.05(theoretical value for the lead cooled BREST reactor) is acceptable it is possible to do away with the breeding blanket altoghether such that no weapons-grade plutonium is produced.

The problem with fast reactors is that the specific fissile inventory is too high for rapid deployment; at 12 tonnes of reactor grade plutonium per GW for the S-PRISM the ~50 000 tonnes of spent fuel for the entire US fleet of LWRs is enough to start just 40 GW. The doubling time is very roughly 30 years(this is my back of the envelope estimate given a breeding ratio of 1.25, a specific fissile inventory of 12 tonnes per GW and 190 MeV released per fission) so there's not much relief from that side either.

It is possible to start fast reactors on U-235(fresh fuel) instead of reactor-grade plutonium. Then you need ~2000-2400 tonnes natural uranium per GW of reactor started(DU tails contain 0.1-0.2% of U-235). If you went after the currently known ~4.5 million tonnes of uranium available at <$130 kg with war-like efficiency to start up S-PRISM reactors you'd get 1.9-2.3 TW of installed capacity. That's not enough, you'd still need a couple of doublings to get where you want to be.

Thermal breeder reactors can do much better. They can't attain the same high breeding ratios as fast-reactors, but still slightly above 1, and they they can't operate on the U-238/Pu-239 fuel cycle; but they have much lower specific inventory(~1000-2000 kg per GW depending on size and design) and rely instead on the Thorium-232/U-233 fuel cycle. In order to achieve breeding in the thermal spectrum you need to keep removing neutron-hogging fission products very quickly; the way to do this is to have the fuel remain liquid so that reprocessing is quick and easy. The molten salt reactor concept was first developed at ORNL, an offspin of tiny high temperature reactors intended for the Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion program. Because the fuel is a molten salt it can be operated at a high temperature(temperature is limited by corrosion concerns in the reactor walls).

It would be best to start them on U-233 obtained by some other means(e.g. see the Indian nuclear programme), but failing that they can be started on U-235 or plutonium, with plutonium being least preferable.

If you want to start them on highly enriched uranium or plutonium I believe you'd want to have a small dedicated fleet of molten salt reactors in a secure location in a nuclear weapons-state in order to avoid proliferation concern. They'd chew through U-235 and plutonium and spit out U-233 that can be used to start 'clean' molten salt reactors elsewhere.

Once operating on U-233 they are proliferation resistant; U-233 was never persued for nuclear weapons because neutron knock-off reactions(i.e. (n, 2n)-reactions) produce U-232 which is a strong gamma emitter that makes the production, storage and handling of bombs difficult and messes with the electronics of the device. Pu-239 is also a better fuel for a nuclear primary than either of U-235 and U-233; in a fast spectrum it produces ~0.5 more neutrons per fission which means the reaction take off faster and the inertial confinement does not need to be as good(small warheads are highly prized).

I'm note sure what combination you'd want for the fastest scaling up of nuclear energy but I think you'd want higher rates of uranium mining, continued expansion of light water reactors for a few more decades before tapering off, fast breeder reactors to soak up the entire inventory of reactor grade plutonium and minor actinides from spent LWR fuel, molten salt breeder reactors started from U-233 produced by surplus neutrons in fast reactors(I would prefer to scale MSRs faster at the expense of fast-breeder reactors, they appear to be cheaper and provide better passive safety).

Excellent post...don't know where you got the lazy thing from...it looks like you were quite diligent. With the number of plants around, peak uranium is just noise right now anyhow.

glenn
 
Your "side effects" appear directed toward an energy infrastructure which does not yet exist.

Which is why I'm advocating we build it.

The United States presently consumes about twenty million barrels of oil a day. Let's pretend for a moment that nuclear generated energy could immediately replace that, across the board, without requiring that we convert our entire fleet of cars and trucks and whatnot to run on electricity, and without requiring that we massively increase the capacity of our electrical grid and all that.

This is actually not necessary. We can synthesize petroleum with enough CO2, Hydrogen and a power source. The article I just linked to describes a system using solar power as the heat source. But the system can be adapted to use any kind of power. The advantage of a system that uses carbon captured from the air is that it is carbon neutral. Burning the fuel wouldn't increase the CO2 from what you started with.

Now. I'll ask for a third time: how many nuclear plants would be required to generate an amount of electricity equivalent to the energy we presently obtain from oil, how long would it take to build them, and what would it cost? (While I'm at it, I'll add: what would it cost in energy, as well as in dollars?)

I don't believe we should just be replacing oil. We need to replace coal as well. Which in terms of carbon release is far dirtier.

The simplest answer to your question is 1 megawatt for every 1 megawatt of existing capacity. Beyond that, your question isn't very specific.

I don't know who Hindmost and Soylent discuss this issue with. I don't know what their thoughts are (though Hindmost has described the obstacles this changeover faces) but when this issue is brought up within the Canadian Nuclear Society, I'm always impressed by the sense of urgency they feel about it.

We know that oil, and with it; time, is running out. We know we have the keys to preventing a major energy crash. We also know that it can be done if we start sooner rather than later.

This is an evolutionary transformation we are facing. Our ancestors went from burning wood and animal dung, to utilizing steam and then to coal, oil, gas and mass electricity production, each time transforming society into something new. The change from simply burning things to harnessing the power and fury of an ancient star and putting it in a can will be no less monumental and historic. This is both about providing for our inheritors a level of abundance and prosperity perhaps even greater than we enjoy, but also about answering the greater question of mankinds ultimate destiny. There are no oil, coal or wind powered spaceships (and past the orbit of the Earth, solar becomes even more useless than it is here). The path to the stars lies in nuclear energy.
 
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Your "side effects" appear directed toward an energy infrastructure which does not yet exist. The United States presently consumes about twenty million barrels of oil a day. Let's pretend for a moment that nuclear generated energy could immediately replace that, across the board, without requiring that we convert our entire fleet of cars and trucks and whatnot to run on electricity, and without requiring that we massively increase the capacity of our electrical grid and all that.

Now. I'll ask for a third time: how many nuclear plants would be required to generate an amount of electricity equivalent to the energy we presently obtain from oil, how long would it take to build them, and what would it cost? (While I'm at it, I'll add: what would it cost in energy, as well as in dollars?)

I did a quick and dirty calc on the number of plants to cover the entire planet and posted previously. I took 500 quads and converted it to MW-Hrs, added in a reasonable capacity factor and came out with about 13000 large nuke plants IIRC. (a really big ball park number) That would cover the entire energy use on the planet from oil, gas, nuke, hydro and the other smatterings. I actually don't know if the 2.4 billion people that use wood as their primary fuel would be included in the 500 quads.

glenn
 
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I did a quick and dirty calc on the number of plants to cover the entire planet and posted previously. I took 500 quads and converted it to MW-Hrs, added in a reasonable capacity factor and came out with about 13000 large nuke plants IIRC.

We better get started. ;)

(a really big ball park number) That would cover the entire energy use on the planet from oil, gas, nuke, hydro and the other smatterings.

I see no reason why we should replace hydro plants. They don't have the abysmal capacity factors of solar and wind, the ginormously huge environmental footprints or the outrageous materials costs. They can only be built in specific locations (major rivers) but big cities are also often found in the same places. So that's not a huge drawback.

I actually don't know if the 2.4 billion people that use wood as their primary fuel would be included in the 500 quads.

Taking 2.4 billion people off wood as an energy source would be better for the environment. ;)
 
Which is why I'm advocating we build it.
I don't even see building a new energy infrastructure as a matter of choice, and it's pretty obvious that it's going to have to rely heavily on nukes. But I also think that it's going to have to rely heavily on conservation. That doesn't necessarily mean we have to abandon all of the conveniences we're accustomed to, but I think we are going to have to tighten things up a lot. I don't see any room in the equation at all for wasteful use of energy no matter where it comes from.

This is actually not necessary. We can synthesize petroleum with enough CO2, Hydrogen and a power source. The article I just linked to describes a system using solar power as the heat source.
Unless that process is a lot more efficient than it sounds like it is, it's hard to see that going very far toward meeting our petroleum needs in the transportation sector. That twenty million barrels a day we use in the US? More than two thirds of it goes just to moving stuff around. Assuming that the estimate of 15 to 20 years to viability on an industrial scale is not overly optimistic, how long do you think it would take to put together enough of those units to put a noticeable dent in that?

No matter what kind of process we're developing as we make the transition from easily-accessible oil to whatever comes next, there is going to be an energy cost involved in developing it, and a lot of that cost is going to be paid with petroleum; the same petroleum we're expecting to continue to become increasingly scarce and expensive. The worst thing we could do is invest that petroleum in last ditch measures which, at best, might prolong dead-end ways of life a little longer -- because that's a recipe for the "energy crash" to which you refer.

A lot of people seem to be expecting some nifty tech fix for the peak oil problem. They will eagerly embrace any new innovation that looks like it might promise that. I don't doubt that there will be some new things that will make a little bit of difference here and there, but I suspect that (to the extent that the problem gets "solved") the solution will be a lot more boring than those people think, and will involve a lot of them giving up some things they'd rather not.

I don't believe we should just be replacing oil. We need to replace coal as well.
Well, I think you can pretty much forget about that. Replacing coal is just not on the table. It's not even on the horizon. The best we can hope for there is finding cleaner ways to burn it.
 
we cant even recover most of the oil we KNOW exists. Damn inter facial tension. Oil keeps getting stuck in the rocks. :(
 
In '08 when Oil was nearly $150/bbl, there was strong demand for alternatives. But even if such prices were sustained it would have been decades before the market could have adjusted itself with alternatives to the point where they could even attempt to bring down the price of oil.

I'm predicting return of $100/bbl this summer, with the economy picking up as it has.
 
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Doing some calculations:

If the admin took up a plan to change 1 trillion miles that US passenger vehicles drive annually to use electrical power rather than gasoline, that could provide savings of $80 billion/year in energy costs.
Assumptions:
22.5 mpg gasoline vs 100 mpg equivalent electrical (easy with fully electric).
$3/gallon gasoline vs $0.15/kWh electric.

I would certainly think that $80 billion in annual savings would justify a significant investment towards accomplishing that goal.
 
This is both about providing for our inheritors a level of abundance and prosperity perhaps even greater than we enjoy,...

Who's "we"?

...but also about answering the greater question of mankinds ultimate destiny. There are no oil, coal or wind powered spaceships (and past the orbit of the Earth, solar becomes even more useless than it is here). The path to the stars lies in nuclear energy.

What has flying around in spaceships got to do with "mankinds ultimate destiny"?
 
We better get started. ;)



I see no reason why we should replace hydro plants. They don't have the abysmal capacity factors of solar and wind, the ginormously huge environmental footprints or the outrageous materials costs. They can only be built in specific locations (major rivers) but big cities are also often found in the same places. So that's not a huge drawback.



Taking 2.4 billion people off wood as an energy source would be better for the environment. ;)

I am not recommending that we replace hydro, I was just providing the basis for the calc. Anyhow, environmental footprints for hydro isn't so good. The flood a lot of land and change the ecosystem--the Colorado river doesn't make it to ocean anymore due all the diverting and use. Capacity factors are dependent on rain and snow fall and in the US, hydro's CF is about 35% or as good as wind on a good day. Google "lake mead" and you can see some of the issues.

glenn
 
So -- ball park -- what? Maybe fifty quadrillion dollars?

And that's why I keep posting that nukes aren't going to solve the problem. Money is one issue and engineering, manufacturing capacity and qualified people are others. Essentially the world will break even to a probable small increase. Some of the plants are getting old and will be shut down.

It still must be part of the future energy mix and you will see more plants being built in the far east over the next few decades. Either we build more plants, or stop using energy.

glenn
 
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I am not recommending that we replace hydro, I was just providing the basis for the calc. Anyhow, environmental footprints for hydro isn't so good. The flood a lot of land and change the ecosystem--the Colorado river doesn't make it to ocean anymore due all the diverting and use. Capacity factors are dependent on rain and snow fall and in the US, hydro's CF is about 35% or as good as wind on a good day. Google "lake mead" and you can see some of the issues.

glenn

I knew wind and solar were bad, I wasn't aware hydro was down there as well.
 
I knew wind and solar were bad, I wasn't aware hydro was down there as well.

I have only looked at recent data from the US. It may be better in other areas of the world. Lake Mead has about 50 years before is becomes dust at current loss rates.

Wind CF can be only 7% during summer months...just when electricity is needed most.

glenn
 
I did a quick and dirty calc on the number of plants to cover the entire planet and posted previously. I took 500 quads and converted it to MW-Hrs, added in a reasonable capacity factor and came out with about 13000 large nuke plants IIRC. (a really big ball park number) That would cover the entire energy use on the planet from oil, gas, nuke, hydro and the other smatterings. I actually don't know if the 2.4 billion people that use wood as their primary fuel would be included in the 500 quads.

glenn

Where on earth will we find the money, brains, and brawn to build that many nuke plants? Much less the real estate?:crowded:
 

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