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Paying for sex, should it be illegal?

Remember folks: prostitution is when women have sex with men for pay. No preconceived ideas there at all.

You're correct of course, and I'm sorry for only talking about women in the presentation of my arguments. The debate in this thread sort of springboarded from its analysis as a woman's issue. But naturally, male prostitutes are quite common too, and the same arguments apply as far as I'm concerned.

Again, sorry. I didn't mean to be sexist. :)
 
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Since "danger" seems to be a factor here, lets take a look at the careers that are the most fatally dangerous.

I dont see anyone saying we should not allow people to be loggers or steel workers because of the risk of death and injury is so great. If people want to use the logic to apply to sex work, you have to apply it here as well or accept your argument is intellectually bankrupt. Oh and I really don't think most men (and the tiny fraction of women that do these jobs) would choose to do them if they weren't high paying jobs either.
 
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Remember folks: prostitution is when women have sex with men for pay. No preconceived ideas there at all.

No offense, but not really. Logical from history - there have been male prostitutes for men (peg houses plus) or women and women who serviced other women but a large majority of known/recorded prostitution is female for males. Just as a large majority of pornography through history has been primarily intended for males. There are reasons for this, but not needed per this discussion.
 
Remember folks: prostitution is when women have sex with men for pay. No preconceived ideas there at all.
Surely it has never occurred that men have had sex with women for pay ever. Surely not.

And heaven forfend that men might have been paid for sex with men, or women with women. That must be beyond conception (scuse pun)
 
But you're not required to do anything. You set your own terms ahead of time on a case-by-case basis. This is why I keep talking about women working for themselves. I'm not talking about women working for pimps. I'm talking about women who choose their jobs themselves. If they don't want to do something, they don't do it.

As for legal jobs with stigma in many circles - stripping, pharmaceutical rep, butcher, sniper, abortionist.




You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and I'm not saying it's necessarily the healthiest thing to do either. But there's a world of difference between advising someone against something and making it illegal.

Well, the pharmaceutical reps usually do not actually **** the doctor!!!:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp
 
So facts backed by data is drivel to you?
What facts? What data?

"Since we know that prostitution always harms women..."
Yes, we all actually agree with this and are incredulous fools for ever doubting such a thoroughly researched fact sheet.


"In other words, buying a woman would be the social and legal equivalent to buying toilet paper."
Whoa! This massively supported fact really does put me in my place!


"Almost everyone in prostitution was raped as a child before she got into it. Incest and rape are boot camp for prostitution."
:rolleyes:


"By the time licensing, policing, and other state-paid tasks are performed, most counties with legal brothels barely break even."
Where's the data for this?


"Legalization increases child prostitution."
Evidence?


"Most women in prostitution end up there only because other options are not available."
In legal prostitution? This paper seems to conflate legal and illegal prostitution to try and make it's points.


"It is often paid rape."
Arguable.


"It is intrinsically harmful and traumatic."
Is this an example of a fact backed by data?


"Pimps are simply not going to hand over the massive profits that they make from the business of sexual exploitation."
Wait. I thought that after all the taxes and so forth, they barely break even. Now they have "massive profits"?


"A 1999 Swedish law describes prostitution as a human rights violation against women."
Which law?



"Legal prostitution is state-sponsored prostitution. "

When the first sentence is completely wrong and reeks of political opiniating, do we nee[d] to go further ?
Newp.

Well sure it's a fact sheet. A whle lot of the paragraphs are preceded by "Fact:". What more could you possibly need? Nobody would put the word "Fact" in front of a lie, would they?
No, you're right! I apologize unreservedly for my rash and hasty rush to judge this air-tight fact sheet.

But it is. In fact I would go even further and say that it's legalized rape.

In any case I have to wonder if this is a skeptic's forum at times. Here we have people that in one breath will talk about how they're all about equality and human/women's rights and in that same breath turn around and say that prostitution should not be illegal. What? Am I the only one who sees the contradiction?
Usually one waits until later in a thread before condescendingly mocking people who question evidence submitted for backing up one's assertions.


If money weren't in the equation, how many of those women would be willing to let perfect strangers have sex with them? And let's make no mistake, that's exactly we're talking about here. Women being required to perform acts that they wouldn't be normally comfortable doing with people they normally wouldn't be comfortable doing it with.

That isn't about sex, it's about power. You know, like rape.
Maybe someone can clarify, but I thought that part of the "better-ness" of legalized prostitution was the ability of the prostitute to you know... say no to particular people who are requesting their services. I wonder if this perception is due to prostitution being mainly illegal in practically every part of the world. I mean, if a restaurant can legally eject a customer because of their massive BO (and they can), why would it be any different for prostitution?
 
If a laborer can rent out his body, why can't his sister? Both using basic life skills to make a living. And both ought to make the same wage as others with such basic jobs.

Hmmm, maybe what we need to do to save prostitutes from themselves is wage fixing? How many would 'do it' if it didn't pay better than day laborer ? Well, +/- a 15% gratuity. Not getting enough to buy drugs would fix that. No profit for the pimps either. Every John would need to file a tax form too.
 
when the criminal justice system gets involved in prostitution enforcement, it's almost always against the women themselves. Rarely are the people organizing and recruiting prostitutes arrested. The women are treated as criminals, not victims.
Especially this is the case with underage women, who are clearly victims, yet they are normally treated as criminals.

Also, enforcement is almost always directed to "streetwalkers" or women who work the "stroll" in any particular city, since it's felt by civic types that these women make the city look tawdry and all.
Almost never do you hear of people involved in the "escort" or "high-priced call girl" trade getting arrested or even bothered.
Finally, there is a lucrative sex trade that is, in most cases, quite legal as no sex takes place on the premesis......That is the "Dungeon" trade where well-heeled men pay very well indeed to have their kinky fantasies acted out..... But no sex.
 
That prostitution is "legalized rape" is a laughable false assertion. It is the exchange of money for a service. A person who doesn't think that having sex with strangers is worth the money shouldn't become a prostitute. And I fail to see how it is anybody else's concern if some people do think it is worth the money and decide to become prostitutes. Likewise, if prostitutes think it is worth the money, how exactly is it anyone else's business if people take them up on their offer? Certainly we shouldn't be wasting resources trying to catch them (undercover police stings are about the only way that ensure convictions).
 
And this is wrong because? LondonJohn claims it to be so. I would very much like him to defend that claim.


Huh?? I am not claiming anything to "be so".

The reason I refer to prostitution in terms of a woman having sex with a man for money is because a) this is the way the vast majority of prostitution in the industrialised world works, and b) this is the situation where the potential for implied exploitation and violation are the greatest (and thus most pertinent to the debate).

But if you also want to include male (seller) - female (buyer) prostitution, male-male prostitution, female-female prostitution, transgender prostitution, and any other permutation you wish, then go right ahead. I'd suggest that these are far smaller markets with few of the endemic issues surrounding female (seller) - male (buyer) prostitution, but if you'd like them to be considered in the debate as well, go right ahead and make a case.
 
If money weren't in the equation, how many of those women would be willing to let perfect strangers have sex with them? And let's make no mistake, that's exactly we're talking about here. Women being required to perform acts that they wouldn't be normally comfortable doing with people they normally wouldn't be comfortable doing it with.

That isn't about sex, it's about power. You know, like rape.

If money wasn't in the equation i wouldn't let people tell at me over their medications withouttelling them off something fierce. hell i wouldn't be getting their pills ready at all if i wasn't being paid.

By your logic my job is legalized slavery and legalized slander (I've been called a murderer more than once)
 
...can you afford me? ;)


I'm fully prepared to by isissxn a Taco Bell dinner (or equivalent - I'm assuming that this interaction is going to take place in the US :D), alcohol up to the maximum of four beers, and a taxi home. But that's all :p
 
But it is. In fact I would go even further and say that it's legalized rape.

Sure, you could say that. You could say lots of things.
But simply saying something doesn't make it true.

Here we have people that in one breath will talk about how they're all about equality and human/women's rights and in that same breath turn around and say that prostitution should not be illegal. What? Am I the only one who sees the contradiction?

Probably. Maybe you could point out the contradiction for us?

And if we're talking about women's rights, why shouldn't a woman have the right to charge money for performing an act that would otherwise be perfectly legal for her to perform?

Making prostitution illegal could be regarded as a restriction of women's rights. (Men's rights too, because not all prostitutes are female.)

If money weren't in the equation, how many of those women would be willing to let perfect strangers have sex with them?

If money weren't in the equation, how many people would be willing to clean toilets in malls or spend their days working cash-registers for other people's businesses?

Women being required to perform acts that they wouldn't be normally comfortable doing with people they normally wouldn't be comfortable doing it with.

You could say exactly the same thing about many different working environments.

That isn't about sex, it's about power. You know, like rape.

Funny, I thought rape was about willing consent.

But let's simplify the equation a little. Everything you've described so far seems the be based on the assumption that the women would be employed by other people. Let's throw that assumption out for the moment.

What about women who work for themselves?

No other people involved, just one woman (or man) and the people who offer her (or him) money in exchange for having sex with them.

In that situation it's simply an offer of money in exchange for sex, an offer which can be either accepted or declined.

In what way is that like rape? :confused:

You're required to have sex with people you don't know and potentially contract STDs or deal with unwanted pregnancies in a job you can't really talk about with others because of the social stigma that comes with it.

Name one other job like that.

Porn star.
 
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Name one job comparable to prostitution.

professional fighter. They are being paid to have their bodies harmed. By your logic it is legalized assault. I could think of a dozen more at least, your points are not very strong.
 
You're required to have sex with people you don't know and potentially contract STDs or deal with unwanted pregnancies in a job you can't really talk about with others because of the social stigma that comes with it.

Name one other job like that.



I would advise people against that, too.



Since I'm trying to build experience with my current job, money is actually a secondary motive at best. So I might very well do so if I thought it would get me to where I wanted to go.

Porn star.
 
I'm fully prepared to by isissxn a Taco Bell dinner (or equivalent - I'm assuming that this interaction is going to take place in the US :D), alcohol up to the maximum of four beers, and a taxi home. But that's all :p

Wow! You're going all out, huh?

I must have made quite an impression. :D
 
professional fighter. They are being paid to have their bodies harmed. By your logic it is legalized assault. I could think of a dozen more at least, your points are not very strong.


But once again, it's important to consider the context and the circumstances. Is there any form of consent under duress from any participants in boxing? Is there any form of implied exploitation? Is there any suggestion that many of the men participating in boxing find the act abhorrent, but that they do it because they feel it's their best life option?


And for this example, it's also relevant to consider the actual activity. If we look at the different activities where consent is not forthcoming from the other party, then those activities would be classified as (probably) assault occasioning actual bodily harm here (in England & Wales), and rape. The former carries a maximum prison sentence of 5 years upon conviction if it's a very serious incident, or a maximum sentence of 6 months if less serious. The latter (i.e. rape) carries a maximum sentence of life in prison, and regularly attracts sentences of 8-10 years.
 

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