Paul The Herodian and the DSS

[Brainache]

Not sure if I posted this review of "The New Testament Code" before, but it is interesting. Robert M Price seems to know his Bible stuff and he gives a glowing review of this book:

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/reviews/eisenman_nt_code.htm

...
The New Testament Code enables us to see not only how wholesale a Hellenization overtook Christianity, far beyond anything Harnack ever envisioned, but also the absolute rage of Torah-Christians who understood Paul as Antichrist and apostate. For the first time, they are not made to look like horned villains and sinister opponents of a noble Pauline gospel. Eisenman’s monumental work stands as a new milestone in the progress of New Testament research. As much as some might wish it otherwise, we can now never turn back from his revelations, great and small, any more than we dare retreat from the ground gained by Strauss, Baur, and Bultmann. Indeed, it is among the ranks of these scholarly titans that we must now enroll Robert Eisenman.

 

[Brainache]

And for anyone daunted by Price's review of the Testament Code, they have released a shorter version:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1568528094/ref=cm_sw_r_fa_dp_dAfhub104K2Z6

...
In The New Testament Code Professor Eisenman marshals his encyclopedic knowledge of scriptures, the scrolls and the entire body of early Christian, Jewish and Islamic writings to present a profound and provocative reading of the New Testament. He argues that the scrolls offer the key to understanding its true meaning. At issue are the relationship between James, the brother of Jesus and the apostle Paul, their strenuous debates over the observance of Mosaic Law, the messianic and apocalyptic movements that presaged the destruction of the Second Temple, the hidden meaning of the Cup of the Lord and the Blood of Christ, and the beginnings of the Christian Church...

I'm not sure how much shorter it is, but I guess they've cut out some of the repetitions that Mr Price mentioned.

 

[Brainache]

Just bumping this thread for any new forum members who might be interested.

And while I'm here I might as well post this:
https://antimissionary.wordpress.com/2012/01/22/paul-a-fraud-and-enemy-of-the-jewish-people/

...In respect to Paul we have come to understand that he was a Herodian and was not an apostle of Jesus. Paul was always in conflict with the teachings of Jesus (Yeshua) and his Essenian sect. It is quite evident that the Community of Qumran (called Essene by scholars) was either the followers of James the Just or the group from which the Nasaarenes emerged. The Dead Sea Scrolls, writings which have been identified by leading unbiased scholars as having been written in the 1st century by the group at Qumran, identify the Qumran Essenes as, “the poor” from the Hebrew word ebion (and therefore Ebionites), the followers of the Way, and men of the New Covenant. These designations in which the Qumran community identified themselves are also names in which the followers of Jesus, led by his brother James, also identified themselves within the New Testament. The organization of the two groups are also exactly alike. Both had a 12 man council with an inner 3 man group of overseers – referred to by Paul as the Pillars in Galatians – Yaakov, Cepha and Yochanon (James, Peter and John).

But the paralels do not stop there. In the DSS, conflicts between a “Teacher of Righteousness”, a “Wicked Priest” and someone called the” Liar or Spouter of Lies” bear marks which identify them as James the Just, the High Priest Ananus( long-time persecutor of the Nazarenes and Zealots), and Paul the False Apostle. One such conflict is almost a mirror image of the theological positions of James the Just who is noted for his stance on ‘maaseh Torah’ the works of the torah, i’e works of righteousness, and Paul’s opposing stance of faith alone without works of the Torah...

Which is by someone who calls himself "Healthzombie" who shares my opinion on this subject, although judging by his "Mission Statement" his motives are a bit different:

MY MISSION
To Expose the lie of a Christianity and Messianic Judaism, which has decieved millions of honest people who desire a connection with the Creator. The Church has propagated a lie of monumental proportions for centuries and has subjugated the peoples of earth to idolatry. They have persecuted, tortured and murdered countless souls for opposing them. They have hunted the Jewish People to the Ends of the Earth in a bid to wipe out the only trace of True Faith and Religion. This blog is my humble effort to help set things right for my part in this clever deception...

 

[Stee]

I have missed this thread along the line somewhere and it interests me, There are quite a few pages here Brainache is it best that I just start at the top and work my way through or is there some sort of condensed post somewhere showing where it has got to?

Dan

 

[Ethnikos]

. . . the Jewish People to the Ends of the Earth in a bid to wipe out the only trace of True Faith and Religion.

Isn't this racism, that only one ethnic group in all the world know God?

 

[Brainache]

I have missed this thread along the line somewhere and it interests me, There are quite a few pages here Brainache is it best that I just start at the top and work my way through or is there some sort of condensed post somewhere showing where it has got to?

Dan

I can't really say. I don't think ever got around to summarising it all.

It does wander around a bit and has some dead ends, derails, jokes and even a few songs, so maybe take a deep breath and start at the beginning...

Good luck.

Isn't this racism, that only one ethnic group in all the world know God?

Yes, I suppose so. I guess it's just part of the whole "chosen people" schtick. I don't believe in god, so naturally I don't think anyone "knows god", no matter how hard they pray.

 

[Stee]

<< First I go then!!

I'll be back....

 

[Ethnikos]

Yes, I suppose so. I guess it's just part of the whole "chosen people" schtick. I don't believe in god, so naturally I don't think anyone "knows god", no matter how hard they pray.

I think if you knew God based on how hard you try, the prize would go to Jezebel's priests of Baal on Mount Carmel.

 

[Leumas]

Isn't this racism, that only one ethnic group in all the world know God?

The Christian racist usurpation of YHWH's bigotry and farcical myths always reminds of this amazingly clever and insightful sketch.

 

[Leumas]

The Christian racist usurpation of YHWH's bigotry and farcical myths always reminds me of this amazingly clever and insightful sketch.

Here is a better version of the video

 

[Brainache]

I've been doing a bit more reading and came across this old thing:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.iii.ii.html

It's called "The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs" and is a late 1st - early 2nd century document from the Ebionite Jewish- Christian tradition. It has an odd intro by some old Apologist:

...Origen quotes from it, and Tertullian is supposed to have borrowed from it one of his expositions, as will be noted in its place. Lardner clears it from charges of Ebionitism,7 but thinks the author was so far in accord with that heresy as to use expressions savouring of “Unitarianism.” ...

...It appears to me an ill-advised romance; not more a “pious fraud” than several fictions which have attracted attention in our own times, based on the traditions of the Hebrews. The legends of the “Wandering Jew” have grown out of corresponding instincts among Christians. To me they appear like the profane “Passion-plays” lately revived among Christians,—a most unwarrantable form of teaching even truth. But as to the work itself, seeing it exists, I must acknowledge that it seems to me a valuable relic of antiquity, and an interesting specimen of the feelings and convictions of those believers over whom St. James presided in Jerusalem:13 “Israelites indeed,” but “zealous of the law.” They were now convinced that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, with Moses and all the prophets, looked for the Messiah who had appeared in Jesus of Nazareth. The author of this book was anxious to show that the twelve patriarchs were twelve believers in the Paschal Lamb, and that they died in Christian penitence and faith...

I think it contains some interesting parallels with the DSS. eg:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.iii.v.html

... a new Priest, to whom all the words of the Lord shall be revealed; and He shall execute a judgment of truth upon the earth,88 in the fulness of days.

Reminds me a lot of this:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/DeadSeaScrolls/1QpHab_pesher_habakkuk.html

the Priest [in whose heart] God set [understanding] that he might interpret all the words of his servants the prophets, through whom
he foretold all that would happen to his people and [his land].

All of these "Testaments..." contain a lot of the usual stuff about the evils of fornication and the importance of obeying the commandments of Moses, but here is another example of something very similar to the DSS:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.iii.xii.html

...Two ways167 hath God given to the sons of men, and two minds, and two doings, and two places, and two ends. Therefore all things are by twos, one corresponding to the other. There are two ways of good and evil, with which are the two minds in our breasts distinguishing them. Therefore if the soul take pleasure in good, all its actions are in righteousness; and though it sin, it straightway repenteth. For, having his mind set upon righteousness, and casting away maliciousness, he straightway overthroweth the evil, and uprooteth the sin. But if his mind turn aside in evil, all his doings are in maliciousness, and he driveth away the good, and taketh unto him the evil, and is ruled by Beliar; and even though he work what is good, he perverteth it in evil. For whenever he beginneth as though to do good, he bringeth the end of his doing to work evil, seeing that the treasure of the devil is filled with the poison of an evil spirit...

Reminds me a lot of this:
http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/md.htm

...
Now, this God created man to rule the world, and appointed for him two spirits after whose direction he was to walk until the final Inquisition. They are the spirits of truth and perversity.

The origin of truth lies in the Fountain of Light, and that of perversity in the Wellspring of Darkness. All who practice righteousness are under the domination of the Prince of Lights, and walk in ways of light; whereas all who practice perversity are under the domination of the Angel of Darkness, however, even those who practice righteousness are made liable to error. All their sin and their iniquities, all their guilt and their deeds of transgression are the result of his domination; and this, by God's inscrutable design, will continue until the time appointed by Him. Moreover, all men's afflictions and all their moments of tribulation are due to this being's malevolent sway. All of the spirits that attend upon him are bent on causing the sons of light to stumble. Howbeit, the God of Israel and the Angel of His truth are always there to help the sons of light. It is God that created these spirits of light and darkness and made them the basis of every act, the [instigators] of every deed and the direction and the directors of every thought. The one He loves for to all eternity, and is ever pleased with its deeds; but any association with the other He abhors, and He hates all its ways to the end of time...

I might be seeing more than is there, maybe these things were common tropes amongst different varieties of religion, or maybe they are evidence of a shared tradition between the DSS and later Jewish-Christians...

It looks similar to me.

 

[Brainache]

I've been doing a bit more reading and came across this old thing:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.iii.ii.html

It's called "The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs" and is a late 1st - early 2nd century document from the Ebionite Jewish- Christian tradition. It has an odd intro by some old Apologist:


I think it contains some interesting parallels with the DSS. eg:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.iii.v.html


Reminds me a lot of this:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/DeadSeaScrolls/1QpHab_pesher_habakkuk.html


All of these "Testaments..." contain a lot of the usual stuff about the evils of fornication and the importance of obeying the commandments of Moses, but here is another example of something very similar to the DSS:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.iii.xii.html


Reminds me a lot of this:
http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/md.htm


I might be seeing more than is there, maybe these things were common tropes amongst different varieties of religion, or maybe they are evidence of a shared tradition between the DSS and later Jewish-Christians...

It looks similar to me.

Looking a bit more at this "Testaments..." thing, I found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testaments_of_the_Twelve_Patriarchs

Levi
The Testament of Levi is an apocalyptic section. It is one of the longest of the Testaments, and is predominantly concerned with arrogance. Taking the theme of the Levite priesthood, the Testament explains how Levi's descendants corrupted the office by their arrogant disregard for the proper regulations.

Chapter 2-8 involves Levi being taken to heaven and promised the priesthood forever, and then seven angels physically give him the insignia of the priesthood (as described in Exodus). This part parallels the beginning and end of a vision in the Aramaic Levi Document, whence the body of the vision is now lost; and is thought to preserve that part of the text...

Aramaic Levi Document
One way in which this testament is distinguished from the others is by additional footnotes in a Greek version of the manuscript from Mount Athos. These footnotes were found to be translated from a non-apocalyptic precursor of the text in Aramaic, partially preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The find consisted of six fragments in two manuscripts from cave 4 (4Q213-214). A small related fragment was also found in cave 1 (1Q21)...

Naphtali
The Testament of Naphtali has apocalyptic elements in it. It opens with the genealogy of Bilhah, his mother, whose father is said to be Rotheus. His vision represents Levi seizing the sun and Judah the moon. The young man with the twelve palm branches seems to be a reference to the Apostles. Joseph seizes a bull and rides on it. He has a further dream in which he sees a storm at sea and the brethren being separated. Again there is a reference to the recurrent theme of sexual relation.[20]

A copy of the Testament of Naphtali was discovered at Qumran among the Dead Sea Scrolls taken from Cave 4 (4Q215).
...

So there is some connection between this thing and the DSS...

Curiouser and curiouser...

 

[Brainache]

So, according to wikipedia a copy of the Testament of Naphtali was found amongst the DSS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testaments_of_the_Twelve_Patriarchs

...The Testament of Naphtali has apocalyptic elements in it. It opens with the genealogy of Bilhah, his mother, whose father is said to be Rotheus. His vision represents Levi seizing the sun and Judah the moon. The young man with the twelve palm branches seems to be a reference to the Apostles. Joseph seizes a bull and rides on it. He has a further dream in which he sees a storm at sea and the brethren being separated. Again there is a reference to the recurrent theme of sexual relation.[20]

A copy of the Testament of Naphtali was discovered at Qumran among the Dead Sea Scrolls taken from Cave 4 (4Q215)...

Here is the text in question:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf08.iii.x.html
It includes this:

...8. Behold, my children, I have shown unto you the last times, that all shall come to pass in Israel. Do ye also therefore charge your children that they be united to Levi and to Judah. For through Judah shall salvation arise unto Israel, and in Him shall Jacob be blessed. For through his tribe shall God be seen dwelling among men on the earth, to save the race of Israel, and He shall gather together the righteous from the Gentiles. If ye work that which is good, my children, both men and angels will bless you; and God will be glorified through you among the Gentiles, and the devil will flee from you, and the wild beasts will fear you, and the angels will cleave to you...

Now I don't know if the DSS version was exactly the same as the Greek version (it was only a fragment), but it starts the same.

 

[Brainache]

I just dropped in to see how the R&P forum was going. I see many familiar names and a few new ones debating the HJ question, so I thought I might bump this thread for anyone who may not have seen it.

To summarise it briefly:

Paul was a member of Herod's family.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were written by the community led by James (the brother of "The Lord").

Paul is the individual identified in the DSS as "The Spouter Of Lies".

So far that is all just a paraphrase of the work of Robert Eisenman.

Where I disagree with Eisenman is in the identity of someone the book of Acts calls "Manaen who was raised as a foster brother to Herod the Tetrarch". I think he was "Menachem the Essene", a son (or grandson) of Judas The Galilean.

I also think this Menachem is the individual the DSS identifies as "The Traitor who kept company with the Liar...". Josephus says that he was promoted by Herod the Tetrarch and later when describing his death at the hands of the Zealots in the Jewish revolt, names him "Absolom". (Absolom being the name of a son of King David who famously betrayed his father and tried to usurp the throne).

The various references and quotes can be found throughout this ramshackle thread of mine.

Enjoy!

 

[Brainache]

Here I go bumping this thread again with a piece of wild speculation...

Did Saul of Tarsus suffer from a stutter? Is that one of the reasons he changed his name to Paul?

Paul says:

... Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Paul’s Concern for the Corinthians
11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,”[a] even though I am nothing. 12 I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles. 13 How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Corinthians 12&version=NIV

What was this "Thorn in his flesh", this "weakness" that made a fool of him and made him protest that he was in no way inferior to the "super Apostles" (worst comic book ever!)?

Taking this idea and applying it to the hypothesis that Paul was the "Spouter of Lies" in the DSS, I saw this in the Damascus Document:

The builders of the wall who go after Zaw-Zaw...

https://books.google.com.au/books?i...=the preaching of zaw-zaw (so and so)&f=false

The words "Zaw-Zaw" apparently mean "so and so" and I imagine "go after" might also be translated as "follow". A different translation has this:

Such men may be described as 'builders of a rickety wall' [Ezek. 13.10], or as persons that have 'walked after filth' [Hos. 5.11]. The 'filth' in question is the babbling preacher of whom God said, 'Babble-babble shall they preach'...

http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/cd.htm

"Zaw-Zaw" might be another example of the kind of word play that the Qumran authors liked so much aimed at a stutterer/stammerer named Saul...

I admit it is pretty thin and relies on a chain of suppositions, but I thought it might be worth bumping this old thread anyway...

Oh well, carry on...

 

[Brainache]

Because it looks like some of my links to Robert Eisenman's Huff Post blog may have expired, I thought I should post this link for anyone who wants to read his piece on the carbon dating of the DSS.

He is pretty scathing on the techniques used and the way many people have interpreted the results:

http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/The-Eise...us-Teacher-the-radiocarbon-controversy-364290

... it was my firm opinion then and now that the margins-of-error in C-14 testing for a timeframe, such as that for the mss. at Qumran – particularly the ‘sectarian’ ones or those never seen before – were of such magnitude as to render “absolute dating” unrealistic. On the other hand, in the circumstances, "relative dating” – meaning, as we just signaled, “earlier vs. later” in the same test series – would be the best that could reasonably be expected since, in the limited circumstances of a run of tests conducted at the same time, the inherent methodological errors would more or less cancel each other out. Moreover such a process might at least test over-inflated claims for accuracy based on these tenuous “paleographic sequences”.
These suggestions along with the caveats were laid out in two letters (to which we attached the relevant literature on the new AMS Carbon testing, in the event he was not familiar with them – we presumed, probably correctly, he was not) to the then Head of the Israel Antiquities Authority, Amir Drori (a former Israel General who saw service in the Lebanon War), where they fell on deaf ears – the first on May 6, 1989 and the second on June 15th, 1989, after no response was received from the first...

 

[Hokulele]

...

Taking this idea and applying it to the hypothesis that Paul was the "Spouter of Lies" in the DSS, I saw this in the Damascus Document:

Slightly on a tangent but related, I believe it was Elaine Pagels who described that the worst of the criticisms in Revelation were actually against Paul and his followers, rather than at Romans or non-Christian Jews as is normally thought. The "Synagogue of Satan" is thought to be a reference to the Pauline Christian community in Ephesus.

Or something like that. It has been a while since I read it.

 

[Brainache]

Slightly on a tangent but related, I believe it was Elaine Pagels who described that the worst of the criticisms in Revelation were actually against Paul and his followers, rather than at Romans or non-Christian Jews as is normally thought. The "Synagogue of Satan" is thought to be a reference to the Pauline Christian community in Ephesus.

Or something like that. It has been a while since I read it.

It is also one of the things Eisenman says, but I doubt he ever acknowledged Pagels. I guess it's one of those things that crops up whenever one starts to look at these texts from a certain perspective.

Like the letter of Jude:

...8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings.
(...) 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

(...)
12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

(...)
16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude

All of this stuff is similar to what the DSS has to say about the "Spouter Of Lies"/"The Lying Scoffer" whom Eisenman equates with Paul.

 

[Brainache]

Just a little update for Scroll fans:
http://www.nationalgeographic.com.a...olls-cave-found-but-the-scrolls-are-gone.aspx

...
The archaeologists are yet to complete their analysis of their excavation and publish a peer-reviewed study of the findings. However, the discovery does highlight the fact the Qumran area might house even more surprises.
"The important discovery of another scroll cave attests to the fact that a lot of work remains to be done in the Judean Desert,” says Israel Hasson from the Israel Antiquities Authority.
“Finds of huge importance are still waiting to be discovered.”

 

[Brainache]

Just a little update for Scroll fans:
http://www.nationalgeographic.com.a...olls-cave-found-but-the-scrolls-are-gone.aspx

I notice that the thread view counter has just ticked over 50,000 so someone is reading it.

I thought now would be as good a time as any to post a follow up to that Nat Geo. article:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...-discovered-judea-israel-west-bank-forgeries/

...Over the past 15 years there has been an increase in the number of Dead Sea Scroll fragments offered for sale on the private art market, said Lawrence Schiffman, professor of Hebrew and Judaic studies at New York University and an authority on the scrolls. “Many of the fragments that entered the market since 2002 appear to be forged.”

Some forgeries have expert lettering on parchment as old as the actual scrolls themselves, Schiffman said. “It’s possible some of this is coming from caves where people were able to locate ancient blank material to write on.”...