Patriotism

[Darth Rotor]

I think its odd that we adhere to Einstein's thoughts on physics but neglect his thoughts on humanity.

Do you presume that competence in one field makes for competence in any other, or all fields?

For example, would you think it odd that we laud Michael Jordan for his basketball expertise, but not for his acumen in the stock market?


Think, for a moment. Einstein, though a smart guy, was famous for being expert in physics.

Why do assume that carries over to humanity, whatever the hell that is?

DR

 

[six7s]

I think its odd that we adhere to Einstein's thoughts on physics but neglect his thoughts on humanity.

Indeed

A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.
Some Famous Dead Guy

 

[h.g.Whiz]

Do you presume that competence in one field makes for competence in any other, or all fields?

For example, would you think it odd that we laud Michael Jordan for his basketball expertise, but not for his acumen in the stock market?


Think, for a moment. Einstein, though a smart guy, was famous for being expert in physics.

Why do assume that carries over to humanity, whatever the hell that is?

DR

Why do is quotes live on then?

 

[six7s]

Why do is quotes live on then?

Cos that's ow istory appens, innit

 

[h.g.Whiz]

g.Whiz

 

[h.g.Whiz]

You would find that odd, yes.

I assume if you were worried about cancer, you would go to a concert violinist? After all, if one is a trained expert in one area, such as physics, that naturally gives you authority to speak in all areas of life, such as music, medicine, political science, and architecture, right?

Three names come to my mind out of all the people that I know that also know me whom I suspect understand physics (physics according to Einstein especially) enough to be considered trained experts. If there was no dispute about these three being trained experts in the field of physics would you advise neglecting their thoughts on humanity as well for the same reason you advise neglecting Einstein's.

Sol Invictus, Reality Check, drkitten

 

[six7s]

If there was no dispute about these three being trained experts in the field of physics would you advise neglecting their thoughts on humanity

No-one is advocating that we should be 'neglecting their thoughts'

As the hallmark of intelligence is being able to apply current knowledge to new situations, it does follow that Einstein would outrank most of us on a whole host of subjects at a dinner party...

But... as he wasn't an expert on 'the humanities', its specious to accord his views with undue respect

 

[ImaginalDisc]

There is no calculus of politics. We accept most of Enstein's ideas in physics because they're demonstrably the more precise and accurate ways to describe the real world.

Politics is not as clear.

 

[Father Dagon]

I've been browsing around in the memoirs of Ernst Rüdiger Starhemberg where he criticises the austrian nazis for claiming to be nationalists when they want to sell out their country to Germany.

And Ludvig von Mises followed a similar chain of reasoning:

The usual terminology of political language is stupid. What is 'left' and what is 'right'? Why should Hitler be 'right' and Stalin, his temporary friend, be 'left'? Who is 'reactionary' and who is 'progressive'? Reaction against an unwise policy is not to be condemned. And progress towards chaos is not to be commended. Nothing should find acceptance just because it is new, radical, and fashionable. 'Orthodoxy' is not an evil if the doctrine on which the 'orthodox' stand is sound. Who is anti-labor, those who want to lower labor to the Russian level, or those who want for labor the capitalistic standard of the United States? Who is 'nationalist,' those who want to bring their nation under the heel of the Nazis, or those who want to preserve its independence?​

And that the web adress of the nazi sect Svenska Motståndsrörelsen (look ma, we plagiarised the Hitlerjugend flag!) is patriot.nu is irony most foul. As a matter of fact, they don't even predend that they like Sweden. I wouldn't be suprised that if a swedish 9-11 would be the result of a collaboration of SMR and some jihadists.

 

[Cuddles]

Doesn't physics apply to music, medicine, architecture etc

One of the few things I've said that made it into someone's signature here was "Everything is physics. That does not mean that physics is everything.". The point is, just because everything can be described at its most fundamental level by physics does not mean that you are an authority on everything just because you're a physicist. Trust me on this, I'm a physicist. Yes, music can be described in great detail by physics. Does that mean you want to listen to a cosmologist playing the violin instead of a professional violinist?

When it comes to Einstein, we adhere to his thoughts on physics because they were provably correct. Some of the time at least. We don't adhere to his thoughts on other things because they're not provably correct. In the specific case of patriotism, anyone's thoughts on the matter are nothing more than opinion, so Einstein's thoughts hold no more weight than anyone else's. When it comes to certain aspects of quantum physics, for example, we don't adhere to Einstein's thought because not only are they not provably correct, they're actually provably wrong. Einstein may have been a bit of a clever bastard, but he didn't know everything and we've made a lot of progress since he was around.

 

[drkitten]

Three names come to my mind out of all the people that I know that also know me whom I suspect understand physics (physics according to Einstein especially) enough to be considered trained experts. If there was no dispute about these three being trained experts in the field of physics would you advise neglecting their thoughts on humanity as well for the same reason you advise neglecting Einstein's.

Yes, if they were operating out of their field of expertise.

Let me put it to you this way. Would you accept Einstein's advice as a hairstylist?

 

[h.g.Whiz]

I meant to go off topic on accident not on purpose.

Yes, if they were operating out of their field of expertise.

Let me put it to you this way. Would you accept Einstein's advice as a hairstylist?

Remind me when traveling back into the past becomes available, should we encounter any problems with traveling into the future to refrain from these topics :

1. Asking for Hairstyle Advice *
2. " if he hunts Easter bunnies or Easter eggs.**
3. Which is faster Light vs.Thought ***
4. Why p's can't be kept by fours today . ****



What would you ask him.


* Upper case letters does not increase your lower case imagination
** Just in " gord in toronto is viewing .
*** not a four star thread
**** pp 4 today

when Gringoes up Yelslow down Stop trying to figure out why 8 is looking for sixsevens

 

[h.g.Whiz]

Yes, if they were operating out of their field of expertise.


I can almost see your the field of expertise all the way over here from my unfulfield of dreams .

 

[Skeptic]

In other words, if something is worth doing, it is worth doing without patriotism.

In theory you're right, in practice, you aren't.

By the same argument, a mother's love for her children is superflous: if taking care of helpless children in her care is worth doing (and of course it is), it is also worth doing without her feeling love for them.

Same with patriotism. To be sure, some people, which we all esteem very highly, resisted the Nazis out of general concern for humanism and justice. But a very great number, perhaps the great majority, of those who resisted, risking (and sometimes losing) their life, it WAS partriotism -- the feeling of pain at what is happening to their country -- that was the main motive.

For the non-patriots, it is far easier to talk oneself out of such a dangerous action as resisting Nazi occupation: the commander of the local city is not THAT bad, they haven't done anything to ME, etc. But for the patriot, the rape of France (or Poland, etc.), even if he personally was not misteated, was reason enough to resist.

 

[Chaos]

Same with patriotism. To be sure, some people, which we all esteem very highly, resisted the Nazis out of general concern for humanism and justice. But a very great number, perhaps the great majority, of those who resisted, risking (and sometimes losing) their life, it WAS partriotism -- the feeling of pain at what is happening to their country -- that was the main motive.

For the non-patriots, it is far easier to talk oneself out of such a dangerous action as resisting Nazi occupation: the commander of the local city is not THAT bad, they haven't done anything to ME, etc. But for the patriot, the rape of France (or Poland, etc.), even if he personally was not misteated, was reason enough to resist.

Once again, you conveniently ignore any facts you don´t like.

Without patriotism, there wouldn´t have been any Nazi regime to resist against in first place, because Hitler´s "arguments" were essentially one giant appeal to patriotism... which, of course, the masses of well-conditioned zombie patriots fell for, hook line and sinker. The vast majority of those involved raped France or Poland - or, for that matter, murdered the jews - not out of personal animosity or hope for personal gain, but for the good of their country, as their patriotic conditioning made them see it.

Oh yes, WW1 also played a big part in the whole thing... but WW1 as we know it wouldn´t have happened, either, if aforementioned bloodthirsty, braindead patriots hadn´t turned out en masse to kill and die for Emperor Billy´s megalomaniac dreams.

 

[RandFan]

I think its odd that we adhere to Einstein's thoughts on physics but neglect his thoughts on humanity.

Argument from authority.

Isn't nationalism the same as patriotism.

No more than all cars are the same as Chevrolet's.

Does not being a patriot one an enemy of the people or an enemy of the state, neither or both ?

I'm not sure I understandt he question but it sounds nonsensical in best and a false dichotamy at worst.

Patriotism is loving one's country. Anything that you add to that is baggage of your own bias without any basis for the supposition.

Remember if Einstein(German native) had been a patriot then WW II might have had a different outcome.

{sigh} You are making a seriously major error. Patriotism DOSEN'T preclude morality, ethics, opposition to government, stanging up for what's right, etc., etc.

One of Einsteins colleagues was a patriot and he invented mustard gas thinking it would end the war quickly and save lives in the long run.

Appeal to emotion.

H.G. Please take a primer on logical fallacy.

 

[RandFan]

Without patriotism, there wouldn´t have been any Nazi regime to resist against in first place, because Hitler´s "arguments" were essentially one giant appeal to patriotism... which, of course, the masses of well-conditioned zombie patriots fell for, hook line and sinker.

Without love for one's spouse there would be no divorce.

Silly argument.

Patriotism is simply an emotion that like any emotion can be exploited or abuses. Patriotism doesn't obviate morality or ethics. Patriotism doesn't obviate common sense or decency.

 

[RandFan]

If your country is invaded by a bunch of jackbooted goons following the orders of a guy like Hitler, and it still takes patriotism to make you take up arms against them, I think there is something deeply wrong with you. (I see this is not so in your case; I´m just saying...)

Fallacy and irrelevant. What is or is not wrong with me is entirely beside my point.

In other words, if something is worth doing, it is worth doing without patriotism. If something is not worth doing without patriotism, patriotism does not make it any more worth doing.

I would stand up to a goon like Hitler for the very simple fact that he doesn't share the values that my nation stands for. He would take away those things I find precious about America including the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It's worth doing because what I love about my country would be at risk.

I'm at a loss as to why that is so difficult to understand.

I mean, just imagine Hitler had done his usual "make Germany a great nation again and fulfill our glorious destiny as an Aryan people" shtick, and the people had told him, as one man, "up yours, Adolf, it takes more than waving the flag and rattling down a bunch of buzzwords to make us go to war"... (or picture the same with Emperor Billy II on the eve of WW1, minus the "as an Aryan people" bit of course)

What if George Bush said that torture was OK and many American patriots stood up to George Bush and said that it is against everything America stands for, what would you think if that happened?

Oh, wait... that did happened and many patriots who believed that George Bush was abusing the American constitution turned against Bush. Many said that appealing to patriotism and fear wasn't enough to abandon America's principles. Ok, Let's go BACK to Samuel Johnson because you are missing the point.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" --Samuel Johnson

Samuel Johnson WAS a patriot. His point was that patriotism cannot legitimately be used as a pretext or justification for immorality or illegality or to act contrary to decency.

 

[Chaos]

Fallacy and irrelevant. What is or is not wrong with me is entirely beside my point.

It is not beside the point that patriotism is not needed at all to resist things like Hitler´s jackbooted goons invading the place you live in.

I would stand up to a goon like Hitler for the very simple fact that he doesn't share the values that my nation stands for. He would take away those things I find precious about America including the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It's worth doing because what I love about my country would be at risk.

I'm at a loss as to why that is so difficult to understand.

He would also take away at least your liberty, considering your unflattering remarks about him, possibly your property and, even more important, your life. I´m at a loss as to why this is not enough to oppose him.

What if George Bush said that torture was OK and many American patriots stood up to George Bush and said that it is against everything America stands for, what would you think if that happened?

Yeah, I wonder. When will you oh-so-great patriots ever take a break from blindly rallying to the one who waves the flag?

Oh, wait... that did happened and many patriots who believed that George Bush was abusing the American constitution turned against Bush.

Funny... his being tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail fails to have made world-wide news. I seem to recall that the oh-so-great American patriots stood up to him so effectively that he was even re-elected, and that they kept standing up him so overwhelmingly that the guy who was to succeed him was defeated only very narrowly.

Many said that appealing to patriotism and fear wasn't enough to abandon America's principles. Ok, Let's go BACK to Samuel Johnson because you are missing the point.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" --Samuel Johnson

Samuel Johnson WAS a patriot. His point was that patriotism cannot legitimately be used as a pretext or justification for immorality or illegality or to act contrary to decency.

But it is used for that, very effectively. Come back claiming you have a point to the contrary when you can show patriots actually standing up in some way other than claiming to have done it, years later.

 

[Thunder]

I believe that patriotism is love of one's country and its values, but not at the expense of other peoples or nations.

Nationalism, is a lot more extremist, intolerant, and cheauvanistic.