Patriotism Poll

[Puppycow]

The last decade or so has given me pause, however, about whether I can be proud of my country now.

That's the basic issue I have with it. I'm not just proud of my country by default. It has to rather earn my pride in it, and if it's not doing particularly noble things....well, I have a harder time feeling that pride.

When we speak of patriotism, what do we mean? It must be one of those highly subjective topics, the essence of which is going to vary from person to person.

When I think of my rights, especially those in the First Amendment, I am proud to live here. When I see what my government is trying to do to my rights, and how many of my fellow citizens not only don't get alarmed, but actually think it might be a good thing, I'm not so proud.

When I see how much bounty my country produces, by the sweat of our brows, I'm proud. When I see that everything has a price, and "what's in it for me" is more important than what I can do for you, I'm not so proud.

Don't even get me started on education, and our ranking among various nations in science and math.

Excellent post.

I totally understand this. I too cringe when I see Americans behave disgracefully. But I try to keep a balance in my mind and remember that the news media is attracted to the bad things and when things go right, it's not news. It's the problem of "cherrypicking" again; the lawyer's approach. The human mind cannot take in all information, so we see patterns that may just be random noise because we tend to focus on certain things while ignoring others. This is why cold readers can get away with their cons. To some extent this is unavoidable, simply because this is how our brains work.

The US also produces lots of great stuff, leads the world in science, and has many cooperative and helpful international relations. The Iraq war was a huge blunder, but hopefully we will learn our lesson and eventually this sorry episode will fade into history. It may take some time. On the other hand, American and British scientists have invented many lifesaving vaccines such as those for polio and smallpox, and countless other lifesaving technology. I imagine that the vast majority of people in the world have at some time or other directly benefited from some US-created technology, such as a vaccine or something else. So in the big picture, I think there is more to evoke pride than shame, but we should not focus on only one and ignore the other.

 

[Upchurch]

Although I very much enjoy other countries, my loyalties are to the US 100%.

That being said, I would like to point out that the US is defined by "We the People of the United States" and not necessarily our momentary government.

 

[Puppycow]

Patriotism: The last refuge of the Scoundrel -- Dr Samuel Johnson 1709-1784

I've interpreted that to mean not that all patriots are scoundrels, but rather that scoundrels claim to be patriots as a convienent fig leaf.

 

[Puppycow]

Wait, it isn't as if all your choices are mutually exclusive making it impossible to vote honestly in your poll. So, when did you stop beating your wife?

That's why you can check more than one box.

 

[tsg]

Patriotism means loving your country enough to tell it when it is screwing up.

 

[BPSCG]

Patriotism means loving your country enough to tell it when it is screwing up.

Patriotism includes loving your country enough to tell it when it is screwing up.

 

[Upchurch]

Patriotism means loving your country enough to tell it when it is screwing up.

Ramen.

It's like family. No matter how much they act like ignorant jerks, you still love 'em.

 

[billydkid]

That's why you can check more than one box.

Oh, I didn't even try that. Sorry.

 

[Fnord]

There is no single foreign policy that is 'right' all of the time and in every situation.

 

[Earthborn]

I believe that if you are an American either by choice or by default, that you should basically be loyal to your country and not sympathize with enemies of America (if you are not American, substitute your own country in place of ‘America’).

Not being American, I am still often expected to be loyal to 'America' over my own country and not sympathise with America's enemies. Some may claim that America's enemies are also my country's enemies and that I therefore should not sympathise with them, but of course much of the reason that America's enemies are also my country's enemies is because my country is loyal to America. I guess it is easier to be patriotic towards your own country to the exclusion of others, if your country is for all intends and purposes running much of the world and doesn't have to deal with lots of other countries for pretty much everything it does.

I don't quite understand what the whole fuss is with 'patriotism'. To me, a nation is just a unit of political organisation. If I am expected to feel loyal towards it, does that mean I should also feel loyal towards my municipality? How about my province, waterdistrict or waste collection route?

I think it is OK to try to see things from their perspective, to try to figure out if there is a way to reduce the hostility, but it is a mistake to go so far as to actually sympathize with them.

I think you need to explain what you think the difference is between "seeing things from their perspective" and "actually sympathising". Is thinking "I think it is wrong what they do, but if I was in their situation I might do the same" sympathising or seeing things from their perspective? How about "I agree with what they do, but not with their justification for it" ?

However, some people go to such extreme lengths to cherrypick facts that paint America in a bad light and her enemies in the best possible light,

Well, if you want to see things from one's enemy's perspective, you kinda have to. The enemy doesn't see you from your best side and doesn't see himself from the worst. Someone who presents the view of 'the enemy' -- even if s/he does not subscribe to that point of view -- will have to present the facts cherrypicked the way 'the enemy' would do it.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I've interpreted that to mean not that all patriots are scoundrels, but rather that scoundrels claim to be patriots as a convienent fig leaf.

That seems reasonable. But how do you tell the two types appart?

 

[BPSCG]

Not being American, I am still often expected to be loyal to 'America' over my own country and not sympathise with America's enemies. Some may claim that America's enemies are also my country's enemies and that I therefore should not sympathise with them, but of course much of the reason that America's enemies are also my country's enemies is because my country is loyal to America.

I think your reasoning is chasing itself around the table here.

I don't expect you to have any loyalty to America, any more than I have any loyalty to the Netherlands. But I do have loyalty to our common values - those basic principles that enable liberal democracies to exist, such as the right to own the contents of our own skins, the right to peaceably own our own property, the right to live our own lives free of any unreasonable government interference.

That established, I would expect countries who share common values to have similar goals and to generally support each others' goals. Yes, there will be disagreements on how to achieve those goals, and even disagreement on whether those goals should even be sought. But similar core values will lead countries to have similar goals, in much the same way that similar core values will lead people to become friends.

And dramatically different core values will tend to translate into opposing goals, even enmity.

So, do I expect other countries, and the citizens of those countries, to be loyal to the US? Of course not. But I do expect that we will find we have many of the same goals. And if I observe that our goals have begun to diverge dramatically, I'll start to question to what extent we do still have the same core values.

 

[Cain]

In an increasingly culturally, politically and economically integrated world, patriotism makes less sense than ever before. Furthermore it is too often taken to mean not simply a set of universal core values, but a stupid, unquestioning secular religion. Only one person (so far) checked "my country, right or wrong" because everyone would like to believe they're above such obvious nonsense.

What does patriotism often mean in the public sphere in the United States? America right or wrong. Sticking it to the rest of the world. Believing we are the greatest country on the face of the earth -- that God actually gives us His personal blessings. I think it was Chesterton who belittled Kipling's "small patriotism." If British military power evaporated, if their position in international affairs diminished, if they had to compromise more and bully less, could one ramp down love of country? Argh, I'll just look up the exact quote:

G.K. Chesterton once observed that Rudyard Kipling, the great poet of British imperialism, suffered from a “lack of patriotism.” He explained: “He admires England, but he does not love her; for we admire things with reasons, but love them without reasons. He admires England because she is strong, not because she is English.”

http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/011016.shtml

Looking it over again, this is a good column (written shortly after 9/11), even if Sobran wants to claim patriotism against nationalism.

I get the impression from conservatives, the people who have claimed flag and country, that worshiping America is rational; we're objectively the best. They seem wonder how someone from some "****-hole" third world country, or second tier European economy could think their country is great? Such affection is probably seen as charming -- parents DO after all love even their ugly children -- but far from ideal. Everyone should at the very least love America because of everything we've done for them. We make everyone better off, and if you hesitate for a second in reaffirming this faith then you're just jealous(!) of our freedoms and power. Mostly our power.

I do not go around declaring how much I love my family or how great I think it is. For one thing, I don't actually love my family; secondly, bragging is just in poor taste. Patriotism in the U.S. is obnoxious and humorless. Why can't our informal national slogan be, "America: We're OK."

 

[BPSCG]

Why can't our informal national slogan be, "America: We're OK."

I prefer "America: F k, Yeah!"

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I prefer "America: F k, Yeah!"

You would.

America's mostly fine. On the whole, a great place to live, but not a great neighbor to have.

 

[Upchurch]

I prefer "America: F k, Yeah!"

I prefer my family analogy: I'll complain about my family all day long, but if the guy next door does it, I'll kick his teeth in.


metaphorically speaking, of course.

 

[BPSCG]

...not a great neighbor to have.

How would you know?

In any case, why don't you ask some of America's neighbors? Here's a complete list:

• Canada
• Mexico

If America isn't a great neighbor to have, in what way has Canada been suffering? We haven't invaded the country in almost 200 years, and we're the biggest buyer of their oil. We let Canadians come into the US with little more than a wave of the hand from the customs guys, and let them use their coins here (at least in the northeast). I would guess that the worst thing about the US vis a vis Canada is our appalling lack of knowledge of their country (quick, what's the capital?)

Mexico. Okay, frankly, I think the best thing we could do for Mexico would be to round up every illegal alien in the US, truck them back to Mexico, and put a 20-foot high wall on the border, with guards every 100 feet and the authority to shoot to kill. Seriously. That would force the Mexican government to deal with its rampant corruption and cronyism that has kept Mexico poor, instead of exporting its poverty problems.

Or it could spark mass rioting, insurrection, and civil war in our neighbor to the south.

We pause momentarily while waiting for ID to stop screaming curses at the screen. Look, ID, you know and I know that's never going to happen, so calm down...

We're a good neighbor to the oligarchy that runs Mexico, not so good to the rest of the population. But I wonder what country would be a better neighbor.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

How would you know?

If you paid the least attention to the history of Cuba, one of our neighbors, you'd note the U.S. has not been a good neighbor to them. Haiti's been treated even worse.

 

[Tony]

Well, what is your position?

I am loyal to my government so long as the government is loyal to our founding ideas.

 

[BPSCG]

If you paid the least attention to the history of Cuba, one of our neighbors, you'd note the U.S. has not been a good neighbor to them. Haiti's been treated even worse.

What do you think about Canada and Mexico, countries we actually share a border with?