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Patriotism Poll

Is patriotism a good thing? (check all that you agree with)

  • Yes. Loyalty to a country worth defending is important.

    Votes: 50 53.2%

  • Yes. My country right or wrong.

    Votes: 2 2.1%

  • Imagine there’s no countries, it isn’t hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for...

    Votes: 33 35.1%

  • America is an imperialist oppressor state.

    Votes: 12 12.8%

  • The rest of the world would be better off if America just minded its own business.

    Votes: 15 16.0%

  • America and the world would be better off if America had a less activist military foreign policy.

    Votes: 46 48.9%

  • There would be few or no enemies of America if America had the right foreign policy.

    Votes: 22 23.4%

  • On planet X we are all members of autonomous collectives.

    Votes: 16 17.0%
  • Total voters
    94

Puppycow

Penultimate Amazing
Puppycow
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
32,049
Location
Yokohama, Japan
I believe that if you are an American either by choice or by default, that you should basically be loyal to your country and not sympathize with enemies of America (if you are not American, substitute your own country in place of ‘America’). I think it is OK to try to see things from their perspective, to try to figure out if there is a way to reduce the hostility, but it is a mistake to go so far as to actually sympathize with them. I believe that most liberals are loyal Americans. However, some people go to such extreme lengths to cherrypick facts that paint America in a bad light and her enemies in the best possible light, that it seems to the observer that they sympathize with the enemy more than their fellow countrymen.
Anyone who has watched a legal drama has seen how lawyers behave. Lawyers from the prosecution and the defense each cherrypick facts and arguments that are beneficial to their own side. We know that neither side alone presents an unbiased view. I think this kind of biased behavior is pretty pervasive in our culture. Perhaps this is a side effect of our culture of free speech and our legal system. Sometimes contrarian-minded people get a little carried away, effectively becoming ‘devil’s advocates’ or de facto pro bono lawyers for America’s enemies.
Ramsey Clark is an extreme example of the sort of person I am thinking of, but I see similar tendencies in some others. I forget who said that ‘a liberal is a man who is too broad-minded to take his own side in an argument’ but I think that there is some truth to that.
Generally speaking, I don’t think that Americans are any better or worse than foreigners. All groups of people contain the same mix of humans, good and bad, although the circumstances and prevailing culture differs. But a reasonable person can be loyal to his own family without thinking that they are fundamentally better people, and the same sort of loyalty can be extended to the nation, which protects our freedoms and way of life from those who would deny them.
 
No answer, none of the options reflect my position.
 
Tony said:
No answer, none of the options reflect my position.
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In today's political climate in the United States I think the most honest option is "it depends on which party is in power".
 
Puppycow said:
Well, what is your position?
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Patriotic not jingoistic. I think America has made many serious blunders in South America, Iran (Shah), Iraq (didn't send a firm message to Saddam about Kuwait) to name but a few.

Patriotism doesn't mean blind obedience. Protesters can be patriots. The history and underpinnings of America are rooted in protest, civil disobedience and seeking redress for grievances.

I didn't vote either.
 
RandFan said:
Patriotic not jingoistic. I think America has made many serious blunders in South America, Iran (Shah), Iraq (didn't send a firm message to Saddam about Kuwait) to name but a few.

Patriotism doesn't mean blind obedience. Protesters can be patriots. The history and underpinnings of America are rooted in protest, civil disobedience and seeking redress for grievances.

I didn't vote either.
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I can agree with all that.
BTW, I know basically what jingoism means but I decided to look it up to get the precise definition. I was interested to learn the etymology of the word, which is this:
The chorus of a song by MacDermott and G. W. Hunt commonly sung in pubs at the time gave birth to the term. The lyrics had the chorus:

We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do,
We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too,
We've fought the Bear before, and while we're Britons true,
The Russians shall not have Constantinople.

The expression "by Jingo" is apparently a minced oath that appeared rarely in print, but which has its origins as far back as the 17th century in a transparent euphemism for "by Jesus".[1]
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I like America. But, then again, I don't know any place else. What have I to compare it to? To what, exactly, do I owe my "loyalty?"

And I'm serious. If I'm going to question my assumptions, I have to start right from the off with the notion that because my mom squeezed me out here, the country owes me something, or I owe it. Did it ask for me? Did I ask for it? Why does happenstance create in either of us a sense of obligation?

Now, had I come here from someplace else, willingly, then yes. I can see where I'd have at least some obligation....I mean, the place was good enough to take me in, yes? And I made a choice, rather like buying a home. I'd like to be proud of it.

By the same token, I get tired of hearing generic criticisms of Americans, simply because they're Americans. Hey, I'm not any happier with what the government has done than anyone else who's unhappy about it, but I didn't vote for the head moron. In fact, I feel bad for voting at all, now. I'm sure some of the people I did vote for, who won, are equal morons.

Just give me some logical, non-emotional reasons for "patriotism." As I said, this is a nice enough place, I suppose. There are worse places. There may be better; I wouldn't know. But I don't see why I should be loyal or disloyal simply by the accident of my birth. I mean, I don't commit treason because it's a crime, and it violates my personal code. Not out of any loyalty.
 
I selected only the first one. I think loyalty to your "tribe" is important, and I think all members of that "tribe" have a responsibility and a duty to protect and preserve that "tribe" if it is threatened. My country is my tribe.

New Zealand raised me. This country protected me and nurtured me as a baby. It educated me, and it continues to offer me protection, education, and a peaceful free society in which to live. I have no desire to ever fight to protect or defend my nation. But if my nation is ever threatened, I will fight for it. I will fight to ensure that the generations of New Zealanders that follow me will enjoy the same life that I have enjoyed. If necessary, I believe New Zealand is worth dying for.

There's a number of key considerations however. Firstly, is the tribe threatened?

Secondly, in the statement:

"Loyalty to a country worth defending is important."

The terms "loyalty", "worth defending" and "important" leave room for a variety of positions.

Most countries have treason laws that prohibit citizens from actively participating in, or inciting war against their own country. That seems reasonable and justified to me.

Does that mean citizens shouldn't be allowed to express sympathy for our perceived enemies? (Whether they actually pose a threat or not). I don't think so. One of the things that makes the country worth defending is that it allows citizens to express whatever view they wish.

No opinions should be outlawed. It is acting on that opinion that should not be permitted.

-Gumboot
 
slingblade said:
I like America. But, then again, I don't know any place else. What have I to compare it to? To what, exactly, do I owe my "loyalty?"

And I'm serious. If I'm going to question my assumptions, I have to start right from the off with the notion that because my mom squeezed me out here, the country owes me something, or I owe it. Did it ask for me? Did I ask for it? Why does happenstance create in either of us a sense of obligation?

Now, had I come here from someplace else, willingly, then yes. I can see where I'd have at least some obligation....I mean, the place was good enough to take me in, yes? And I made a choice, rather like buying a home. I'd like to be proud of it.

By the same token, I get tired of hearing generic criticisms of Americans, simply because they're Americans. Hey, I'm not any happier with what the government has done than anyone else who's unhappy about it, but I didn't vote for the head moron. In fact, I feel bad for voting at all, now. I'm sure some of the people I did vote for, who won, are equal morons.

Just give me some logical, non-emotional reasons for "patriotism." As I said, this is a nice enough place, I suppose. There are worse places. There may be better; I wouldn't know. But I don't see why I should be loyal or disloyal simply by the accident of my birth. I mean, I don't commit treason because it's a crime, and it violates my personal code. Not out of any loyalty.
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Good post. I don't think patriotism is requisite of anyone. America should absolutely embrace those who do not wish to be patriotic.

Patriotism to me is pride of the ideals that my nation was founded on and the belief that I have that America is a grand and noble experiment, even if we did get so much of it so wrong. It's not the greatest and it often fails to live up to the ideals. However, the ideals are significant, a nation of the people by the people and for the people. Also, that all people have the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If they are denied their rights they should be able to appeal to their leaders and also to be able to seek redress through the courts.

You raise a great point about not choosing America. Happenstance isn't enough. However, I'm here, I'm happy to be here and not Darfur, Cambodia, North Korea or many other hell holes around the world. I'm loyal because America has given me an opportunity and a promise. It could do better but I'm grateful for what I do have.

I have, many times, defended patriotism. I wouldn't try to sell to anyone though. It's a personal thing. It is emotional. I didn't choose my wife for purely logical reasons and I'm not loyal to her for purely logical reasons. I guess the same is true for the love of my country.

Given the choice I would likely choose it anyway.

BTW: I note you are waving the flag. :)
 
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Nice flag slingblade. :)

As far as logical, non-emotional reasons for "patriotism," I think there is a two-part response. The first is that emotion is not illegitimate just because it’s not logical, and the second is a matter of practicality. I think that as a society we do better when we have a certain group identity in common, which encourages cooperation. This is not to say that all cooperation should be within a country; cooperation between countries is also beneficial. Ultimately, I would probably prefer a single united world government, if it is a fair, just, accountable, and effective one, but as a practical matter, I don’t see any such thing happening in the foreseeable future. Better to work with the current system to try to gradually improve it.
 
I believe the most American response to the question of patriotism is a sincere, heartfelt "Meh."
 
The problem is when patriotism mixes with politics to give "nationalism".

And nationalism is to political ideologies as astrology is to astronomy, methinks.

Patriotism as a purely personal "love" I don´t have a problem with. As with religion, paraphrasing that brilliant quote: "I respect patriotism like I respect the way parents think that their children are the most intelligent, the most beautiful." I can´t remember the exact quote now...
 
:D Yeah, it is a nice flag. And it's almost Independence Day, a nicely patriotic holiday.

As I said, I like America, like living here, and along with RandFan, I'm grateful for what I have that living here has given me the chance to earn. I'm sure I used to at least give more lip service to patriotism, in my not-so-disillusioned youth. The last decade or so has given me pause, however, about whether I can be proud of my country now.

That's the basic issue I have with it. I'm not just proud of my country by default. It has to rather earn my pride in it, and if it's not doing particularly noble things....well, I have a harder time feeling that pride.

When we speak of patriotism, what do we mean? It must be one of those highly subjective topics, the essence of which is going to vary from person to person.

When I think of my rights, especially those in the First Amendment, I am proud to live here. When I see what my government is trying to do to my rights, and how many of my fellow citizens not only don't get alarmed, but actually think it might be a good thing, I'm not so proud.

When I see how much bounty my country produces, by the sweat of our brows, I'm proud. When I see that everything has a price, and "what's in it for me" is more important than what I can do for you, I'm not so proud.

Don't even get me started on education, and our ranking among various nations in science and math.

But so what? Every place has problems. Does patriotism depend on perfectionism? I doubt it. Perhaps the problem lies in my lexicon? Maybe I think a patriot is always proud. Maybe I think patriotism has a blinding effect, and I try to eschew such things these days, when I'm bright enough to recognize them, that is.

I like America. I just don't think I'm all that patriotic--flag-waving for the holiday aside. ;)
 
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Of course, there are always those who make little or no distinction between patriotism and nationalism, and since nationalism is a Bad Thing, so is patriotism, even the displays thereof:
On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.

Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?

These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.

National spirit can be benign in a country that is small and lacking both in military power and a hunger for expansion (Switzerland, Norway, Costa Rica and many more). But in a nation like ours -- huge, possessing thousands of weapons of mass destruction -- what might have been harmless pride becomes an arrogant nationalism dangerous to others and to ourselves.
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Jeeze, I remember having to read this guy's crap for a history seminar when I was in college a couple of thousand years ago.

Yeah, we have an American flag hanging from the front of our house, 365 days a year, not just on days when government offices are closed so we can go spend money at the mall. And so do many of our left-leaning neighbors here in the Democratic People's Republic of Alexandria, which votes a little to the left of San Francisco each November.

The same emotions swell up in my breast every day when I see all those flags: Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could drop a couple of WMDs on someone today? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could engage in some expansionism today and make Ontario our 51st state?

And I know my neighbors all feel the same, including Paula, who's a little to the left of Ralph Nader.

(I voted for the first option, plus the Planet X one, out of fealty to Dennis.)
 
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Does patriotism truly mean blind pride in one's nation? I would call that nationalism.

The ultimate symbol of patriotism may be dying for your nation on a battlefield, but I think that's at the extreme end. Ultimately, a patriot of this type is seeking to better their society and ensure its future by defeating foreign entities that would destroy it. Therefore, a person who seeks to better their society and ensure its future by combating a government that threatens it is also a patriot.

The fundamental tenants of patriotism, to me:

1) My nation is broadly worthy of my respect
2) My nation rightly deserves to continue to exist
3) I am willing to offer a sacrifice (time, money, effort, life) in order to preserve my nation from all threats

-Gumboot
 
Wait, it isn't as if all your choices are mutually exclusive making it impossible to vote honestly in your poll. So, when did you stop beating your wife?
 
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