Patrick Rothfuss - The Kingkiller Chronicle [SPOLIERS]

[gumboot]

Just wondering anyone has read the first two books in this series:

The Name of the Wind
The Wise Man's Fear

A third is probably still a few years away. This work has got lots of nice mystery and clues in it that open it up to discussion and speculation. For those who haven't read the series you should probably assume this thread (if it takes off) will include spoilers.

 

[gumboot]

Okay, I'll throw up a couple of theories I've come across.

One of the interesting ideas from the books is the identity of Natalia (SP?) Lackless; the sister of Meluan Lackless, who ran off with one of the Edema Ruh. Because of this Meluan has an almost pathological hatred of the Edema Ruh, which causes problems for Kvothe. Because of the Lackless/Lockless family's possession of the Lackless Door and Lackless Box, it seems highly likely they're central to the mystery surrounding the Chandrian and the Amyr, and will probably feature heavily in the third book.

I've seen two propositions for Natalia's identity; one is Kvothe's mother and one is Denna. Personally I think Kvothe's mother is the better fit, but there's some interesting arguments either way.

 

[Wudang]

I love the books. I'm not sure why we have to assume that the Lackless family have more significance than the obvious. An interesting idea but for me this is definitely a case of trusting the author to take me where he's going.
His description of the martial techniques of the Adem is the best literary description I've found of tai ji quan.

 

[gumboot]

I love the books. I'm not sure why we have to assume that the Lackless family have more significance than the obvious. An interesting idea but for me this is definitely a case of trusting the author to take me where he's going.
His description of the martial techniques of the Adem is the best literary description I've found of tai ji quan.

The evidence that Kvothe's mother is Natalia Lackless is pretty strong, and the link between the Lackless Door and the door in the Archives makes a pretty strong case that the family are central to the main storyline.

I thought the description of Kvothe's training with the Adem was great, although I'd argue that is used a mixture of Wudang and Shaolin elements.

 

[Wudang]

The evidence that Kvothe's mother is Natalia Lackless is pretty strong,

Oh good an excuse to re-read them ;-)
eta:2 I found http://kkc.wikia.com/wiki/Laurian which makes a pretty good case. The familiarity he saw with Meluan was something I'd missed in particular.

and the link between the Lackless Door and the door in the Archives makes a pretty strong case that the family are central to the main storyline.

Agreed.

I thought the description of Kvothe's training with the Adem was great, although I'd argue that is used a mixture of Wudang and Shaolin elements.

I don't recall anything that wasn't neijia but see my first answer above. Certainly the body mechanics are neijia - Tempi's use of the shoulder when explaining the Ketan is pure "kao".

eta: Some nice uses of kao (shoulder stroke) here http://bugu.cntv.cn/sports/other/wulindahui/classpage/video/20100420/101111.shtml

 

[gumboot]

I don't recall anything that wasn't neijia but see my first answer above. Certainly the body mechanics are neijia - Tempi's use of the shoulder when explaining the Ketan is pure "kao".

The fact that, from the outset, they're focused on his physical fighting performance, and there's virtually no training in breathing or meditation, is a waijia learning path in itself.

Although I suspect what Rothfuss has done is gone for a more traditional approach where the internal/external distinction isn't made (that distinction only dates to the 17th Century).

I find the entire thing pretty interesting because, as you say, it's the first fantasy book I've come across that does the learning process any justice. I also have a more personal interest as I have a warrior priest cult in a book I'm writing and their training style is based on waijia. It is much more in the institutional style of a large facility such as Shaolin however, with the early practitioners learning the physical base en masse in large classes, and only beginning to focus on the internal nuances much later once they've mastered the basics. At that point they find the particular style that best suits them and then learn one on one with a master of that style.

 

[Soapy Sam]

My understanding, from statements on PR's website, is that the entire story has been finished for some time. The delay in publishing part three would then be a financial decision.
My own supposition is that Meluan's sister is Kvothe's mother. It's strange that this seems never to occur to such a smart young man. I had never considered that Denna is the missing sister. The ages seem quite wrong. I did briefly wonder if she was his sister (shades of Luke & Leia) - but there's nothing in the story to suggest it.
The frequent coincidental meetings between Denna and Kvothe do demand an explanation. When they seek each other, neither is to be found, yet they can hardly go anywhere without meeting by chance.All very fishy.

I enjoyed both books greatly and look forward to part three.
There is a lot to be told- Is Ambrose king? Which king did Kvothe kill?
More to the point, when the flashback stage of the tale is done, how will PR deal with it? Will the last stage of the story be a straight, third person narrative? I rather hope not, as I find the "current" scenes in the inn rather dull and hackneyed. Where do American fantasy writers get their romantic ideas about inns? This is not a scrubbed and sterilised 21st century bar. Stop trying to make it seem like one.

 

[Wudang]

The fact that, from the outset, they're focused on his physical fighting performance, and there's virtually no training in breathing or meditation, is a waijia learning path in itself.

Even if you train in Yangjia Michuan tai chi I'd regard this as suspect. Tai ji quan is a quan, a "fist". It's not a "way" to enlightenment. And in its roots in Chenjiagou it was purely a martial art. It's only when it got picked up by intellectuals impressed by Yang Lu Can that it was seen as anything else.

Although I suspect what Rothfuss has done is gone for a more traditional approach where the internal/external distinction isn't made (that distinction only dates to the 17th Century).

I'd be interested in what you see as the development of internal martial arts in the 17th century. Are you talking about tongbeiquan?

I find the entire thing pretty interesting because, as you say, it's the first fantasy book I've come across that does the learning process any justice. I also have a more personal interest as I have a warrior priest cult in a book I'm writing and their training style is based on waijia. It is much more in the institutional style of a large facility such as Shaolin however, with the early practitioners learning the physical base en masse in large classes, and only beginning to focus on the internal nuances much later once they've mastered the basics. At that point they find the particular style that best suits them and then learn one on one with a master of that style.

I have a much more personal interest as I've trained in external and internal martial arts for 30+ years. Early tai chi training was based more on mundane tasks, rolling large urns around to develop silk reeling etc. The first large scale tai chi classes (IIRC) were with the Wu square form, and despite being a Wu stylist, I'm pretty unconvinced it's the right way to learn.

 

[gumboot]

Even if you train in Yangjia Michuan tai chi I'd regard this as suspect. Tai ji quan is a quan, a "fist". It's not a "way" to enlightenment. And in its roots in Chenjiagou it was purely a martial art. It's only when it got picked up by intellectuals impressed by Yang Lu Can that it was seen as anything else.

I didn't mention anything about enlightenment. The internal forms focus on internal strength where the martial artist develops their skill initially through internal peace, meditation, spirituality, and so on. This contrasts with the external styles which focus on physiology. There's little evidence of Kvothe working on his "internal strength" and lots of evidence of physical training.

I'd be interested in what you see as the development of internal martial arts in the 17th century. Are you talking about tongbeiquan?

I'm talking about the distinction between internal and external. Prior to the 17th Century no such distinction existed in Chinese Martial Arts.

 

[gumboot]

My understanding, from statements on PR's website, is that the entire story has been finished for some time. The delay in publishing part three would then be a financial decision.

The original drafts were written some time ago, but he spends a very long time revising them.

My own supposition is that Meluan's sister is Kvothe's mother. It's strange that this seems never to occur to such a smart young man.

To be fair, remembering a single incident featured in a book, which you read 100 pages ago, is substantially easier than recalling a single incident that happened four years ago, out of a life time of experiences, particularly given it's clear he has tried to repress memories of his family to save him grief.

I had never considered that Denna is the missing sister. The ages seem quite wrong. I did briefly wonder if she was his sister (shades of Luke & Leia) - but there's nothing in the story to suggest it.

Yeah I don't think the theory fits either, but it's based on an assumption that A) Meluan is quite young and B) Netalia only ran away quite recently. I would argue that the evidence points to the opposite.

The frequent coincidental meetings between Denna and Kvothe do demand an explanation. When they seek each other, neither is to be found, yet they can hardly go anywhere without meeting by chance.All very fishy.

I agree. The two leading theories seem to be either that Denna's patron works with the Chandrians (or is one), or her patron is with the Amyr. In either event I think the evidence strongly suggests Denna is sticking close to him at someone else's bidding.

I enjoyed both books greatly and look forward to part three.
There is a lot to be told- Is Ambrose king? Which king did Kvothe kill?

And even, did he kill a king? A lot of effort seems to have gone into demonstrated that not all the tales about him are true!

More to the point, when the flashback stage of the tale is done, how will PR deal with it? Will the last stage of the story be a straight, third person narrative? I rather hope not, as I find the "current" scenes in the inn rather dull and hackneyed.

I almost expect the third book to end with him finishing the story, and the Chronicler leaving. I don't think there's going to be any heroic ending to this - Kvothe is just waiting to die, and will continue to wait to die. I feel a very bitter ending coming.

Possibly setting up a sequel?

Where do American fantasy writers get their romantic ideas about inns? This is not a scrubbed and sterilised 21st century bar. Stop trying to make it seem like one.

The idea of a village having an inn at all is absurd, but these sorts of things are par for the course in fantasy, sadly.

 

[Wudang]

I didn't mention anything about enlightenment. The internal forms focus on internal strength where the martial artist develops their skill initially through internal peace, meditation, spirituality, and so on. This contrasts with the external styles which focus on physiology. There's little evidence of Kvothe working on his "internal strength" and lots of evidence of physical training.

You completely misunderstand internal strength. It is purely physiological and has nothing to do with spirituality. See for example
http://ismag.iay.org.uk/
or read Wang Xiangzhai's "Dachengquan". Or either of Doug Wile's excellent books.

 

[Wudang]

I almost expect the third book to end with him finishing the story, and the Chronicler leaving. I don't think there's going to be any heroic ending to this - Kvothe is just waiting to die, and will continue to wait to die. I feel a very bitter ending coming.

Possibly setting up a sequel?

Possibly setting up for a series of trilogies lke Robin Hobb? I hadn't considered the above but I can see it now.

 

[Wudang]

You completely misunderstand internal strength. It is purely physiological and has nothing to do with spirituality. See for example
http://ismag.iay.org.uk/
or read Wang Xiangzhai's "Dachengquan". Or either of Doug Wile's excellent books.

BTW if you're going by the wikipedia article on neijia it's a bit slanted in favour of Sun Lutang. If you look at the entry on T'ai_chi_ch'uan^WP you'll see some clearer timelines and history in terms especially of Chen village.

 

[gumboot]

You completely misunderstand internal strength. It is purely physiological and has nothing to do with spirituality. See for example
http://ismag.iay.org.uk/
or read Wang Xiangzhai's "Dachengquan". Or either of Doug Wile's excellent books.

The Chinese philosophical concept of qi is absolutely spiritual. Internal forms focus on strength coming from qi and working out to the physical body. Extern forms, by contrast, build a strong physical base first, and only develop qi at the advanced stages, accessing it, if you like, via the physical form.

That's probably why the distinction didn't originally exist; because both approaches invoke the physical and the spiritual, and I'm willing to bet that historically there was a wide variety of ways in which the two elements were trained, so no clear and obvious distinction between groups of schools.

And no I'm not relying on wikipedia. I too have been a student of wushu (although not currently).

 

[gumboot]

Possibly setting up for a series of trilogies lke Robin Hobb? I hadn't considered the above but I can see it now.

I'm inclined to suspect he's going to disappoint everyone by just ending it after the third day of recounting his story, but I think further ongoing books is probably more likely than finishing the third day half way through the third book, and then adding some sort of fourth act. That just seems a bit too clumsy for a writer than gives the impression of being quite particular.

 

[Wudang]

The Chinese philosophical concept of qi is absolutely spiritual. Internal forms focus on strength coming from qi and working out to the physical body. Extern forms, by contrast, build a strong physical base first, and only develop qi at the advanced stages, accessing it, if you like, via the physical form.

But qi in the context of martial arts is physical. I've given you some sources. Give me some that say qi is not physical. I'd suggest you start with this. And even a glancing knowledge of the chinese concept of qi would tell you that the word derives from "steam coming from rice as it cooks" and is at root metabolic activity.
Needham's book will in particulr enlighten you on the 2 strands of Taoism, shaman and alchemical, who had different practices but shared a vocabulary with different referents.

That's probably why the distinction didn't originally exist; because both approaches invoke the physical and the spiritual, and I'm willing to bet that historically there was a wide variety of ways in which the two elements were trained, so no clear and obvious distinction between groups of schools.

And no I'm not relying on wikipedia. I too have been a student of wushu (although not currently).

Jackie Chan is a student of wushu. I have trained extensively in taijiquan and dabbled in ba gua, xing yi, i chuan and aikido, I'm ignoring my waijia training as it's not relevant. Wushu is an ambiguous term and in the UK refers (IMHO) to people who train the forms without understanding the kung.

 

[Wudang]

That just seems a bit too clumsy for a writer than gives the impression of being quite particular.

He's going to pull something skillful off, yes. I know how I long I waited for book 2 and how skillfully crafted it was "I once jumped off a roof". I expect good things.

 

[gumboot]

But qi in the context of martial arts is physical. I've given you some sources. Give me some that say qi is not physical. I'd suggest you start with this. And even a glancing knowledge of the chinese concept of qi would tell you that the word derives from "steam coming from rice as it cooks" and is at root metabolic activity.
Needham's book will in particulr enlighten you on the 2 strands of Taoism, shaman and alchemical, who had different practices but shared a vocabulary with different referents.

It sounds like you've been trained in a philosophy that has been manipulated to be more palpable to western practitioners - not an uncommon thing.

The chinese concept of "qi" would be, by any modern western standards, supernatural or spiritual. The fact that its etymology derives from steam coming from rice does not reflect a Chinese understanding of thermodynamics, but rather their misinterpretation of the source of physical phenomenon.

Jackie Chan is a student of wushu.

No, he's a Peking Opera student. I think you're thinking of Jet Li (I am assuming, from your remarks later on, that when you say "wushu" you're referring to the sport).

I have trained extensively in taijiquan and dabbled in ba gua, xing yi, i chuan and aikido

With the exception of aikido, these are all styles of wushu (in the traditional sense, not the sport sense).

I'm ignoring my waijia training as it's not relevant.

How is it not relevant?

Wushu is an ambiguous term and in the UK refers (IMHO) to people who train the forms without understanding the kung.

I can't speak for what you think the term means in the UK, but the term "wushu" is a Chinese term referring to the collective body of Chinese Martial Arts styles. These in turn are commonly classified in a range of different ways, "internal" and "external" being one of them.

There is also a sport called "wushu" that relates only to competitive performance of forms in an aesthetically pleasing and technically proficient way, which I've found is what most westerners think of as "wushu", so maybe that's what you're thinking of.

As forms were considered only a part of our training, we were discouraged from thinking of "wushu" only as the correct performance of forms. "Wushu" was regarded as a more accurate term than the erroneous "gongfu".

 

[gumboot]

He's going to pull something skillful off, yes. I know how I long I waited for book 2 and how skillfully crafted it was "I once jumped off a roof". I expect good things.

I really enjoyed the first book, but the second was much, much more enjoyable, I was genuinely delighted by the crafting of many scenes, and the "I once jumped off a roof" scene was one such example. Some of the banter between the students had me quite literally laughing out loud, which is pretty rare unless I'm reading a Pratchett novel.

 

[Wudang]

It sounds like you've been trained in a philosophy that has been manipulated to be more palpable to western practitioners - not an uncommon thing.

No I've trained in multiple styles of neijia and attended many workshops with people from across the world. And I used to spend a lot of time online on forums dedicated to internal martial arts

with people trained directly by lineage holders. And I have a decent library.

The chinese concept of "qi" would be, by any modern western standards, supernatural or spiritual. The fact that its etymology derives from steam coming from rice does not reflect a Chinese understanding of thermodynamics, but rather their misinterpretation of the source of physical phenomenon.

Nope. Really, start with Colin Ronan's condensed version of Needham's "Science and Civilization in Ancient China". Qi is as generic a term as energy is in english. This is one of the reasons that it's often qualified as "ground qi", "etheric qi" etc.

No, he's a Peking Opera student. I think you're thinking of Jet Li (I am assuming, from your remarks later on, that when you say "wushu" you're referring to the sport).

Pretty much. I should have clarified that.

With the exception of aikido, these are all styles of wushu (in the traditional sense, not the sport sense).

How is it not relevant?

In the same way that in an argument on say Mongol archery I wouldn't really mention my time practicing European archery as they are different enough that many assumptions don't carry over.

There is also a sport called "wushu" that relates only to competitive performance of forms in an aesthetically pleasing and technically proficient way, which I've found is what most westerners think of as "wushu", so maybe that's what you're thinking of.

Well it seems to be what China uses the term for now.

As forms were considered only a part of our training, we were discouraged from thinking of "wushu" only as the correct performance of forms. "Wushu" was regarded as a more accurate term than the erroneous "gongfu".

Yes I'm familiar with it thanks.
Anyway thankfully we have a lot of old documents like the Tai Chi Classics available and translated in various ways and argued over by experts of various stamps. So we can read those. If we read the taijiquan classics we find very little if any reference to qi, the references are to jin - refined strength.
But BS baffles knowledge as they say. Look how quickly Dachengchuan spawned BSers talking of qi and "empty force" during Wang Xuanjie's lifetime. Ironic given his goals.