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Patraeus: Surge a Failure?

Umm... the quote in question contains the phrase, "sufficient progress". The word "sufficient" seems to be getting ignored, but I suspect it's at the heart of what Petraeus was talking about. Not sufficient for what? For the Iraqis to stand on their own? Yeah, I'd say that hasn't happened yet. Not sufficient to say that the surge isn't a failure, as Joe claims? I'm afraid there's no basis for reaching that conclusion from Petraeus's quote.
 
Since Ann Coulter described things as going "swimmingly" a few years ago, we should have some official analogies to chart "sufficient progress". Are things now going "kyackingly" and we can look forward to them eventually going "walkonwateringly"?
 
I do not think that word means what you think it does.

Occupation - A condition in which territory is under the effective control of a foreign armed force.

What does the term "occupation" mean to you?
 
Occupation - A condition in which territory is under the effective control of a foreign armed force.

What does the term "occupation" mean to you?
It has a legal definition you know, and by that definition Iraq has not been occupied since June 2004. That was when Iraq was handed over to the Iraqis.

Per the Geneva Conventions, Iraq is no longer occupied.
 
Not that I want to go too far down that alley, but when it comes to Realpolitik, what changes have really occured when it comes to self-governance since Bremmer shook Iraqi dust from hit boots and today?

I know it was a great symbolic (and sneaky) movement by the CIG, but we have more U.S. troops on the ground there than then so when exactly did we stop being an "occupying" force and start being a force that was merely present?

Look, I don't have the military experience of my dad, DR, Joe Ellison, the current CENTCOM commanders, John McCain, or even president Bush who spent more time in the AFNG than I did in the ANG, but even I can see that OIF has been the most f-ed up military endevour by the U.S. since.. well, I was going to analagize it to VietNam, but this is more like the Soviet's time in Afghanistan. You can cite all the legalistic mumbo-jumbo BS that you want, but we conquered a nation in 90 days and have utterly f-ed up the "occupation" of it for the last 5 years mainly due to politicians running the war, not the generals (umm, VietNam analogy anyone).

The neocons screwed the pooch on this one and a lot of patriotic young Americans are paying the price for it. It's time to admit that fact and see how we can extricate ourselves without disgracing the sacrifice of the almost 4,000 dead and 30,000+ wounded. Dubyah's boondoogle has failed, even if the surge and eventual pacification of Iraq succceedes.
 
It has a legal definition you know, and by that definition Iraq has not been occupied since June 2004. That was when Iraq was handed over to the Iraqis.

Per the Geneva Conventions, Iraq is no longer occupied.

Actually, the definition I quoted is a United Nations term definition and according to both their, and the Geneva Convention, definitions, we (US) are still militarily occupying Iraq. If your intent is to quibble over a naive legalese cover/interpretation of terms and responsibilities then you should have avoided bringing up the UN and the Geneva Conventions, as they anticipate, and are designed for the most part, with the specific intent of abbrogating such superficial (and largely domestic political debate) obsfucations.

Article 4 of Geneva Convention IV, if interpreted in the light of its object and
purpose, is directed to the protection of civilians to the maximum extent possible.
It therefore does not make its applicability dependent on formal bonds and
purely legal relations. Its primary purpose is to ensure the safeguards afforded
by the Convention to those civilians who do not enjoy the diplomatic protection,
and correlatively are not subject to the allegiance and control, of the State
in whose hands they may find themselves. In granting its protection, Article 4
intends to look to the substance of relations, not to their legal characterisation
as such
Prosecutor v. Tadic (Case IT-94-1-A) (1999) paragraph 168 (http://www.un.org/icty/tadic/appeal/judgement/tad-aj990715e.pdf).

Security Council Resolution 1546 of June 8, 2004, endorsed the transferal by June 30, 2004, of authority in Iraq from the CPA to the interim Iraqi government, which had been set up on June 1, 2004. Resolution 1546 deemed that with this transfer of authority, the occupation of Iraq would come to an end. Noting that the presence of the multinational force in Iraq was at the request of the Iraqi interim government, the Council granted that force “the authority to take all necessary measures to contribute to the maintenance of security and stability in Iraq” in accordance with the letters exchanged between the Prime Minister of the Iraqi interim government and the U.S. Secretary of State. The Council viewed these two letters as establishing a “security partnership”—indeed a “full partnership”—between the interim Iraqi government and the multinational force (Article 11).

Resolution 1546 does not elaborate on the international legal obligations to which the multinational force is subject when exercising its authorities. The only reference to this issue appears in the letter of Secretary of State Colin Powell, who asserts that “the forces that make up the [multinational force] are and will remain committed at all times to act consistently with their obligations under the law of armed conflict, including the Geneva Conventions.” The law of occupation, part of which is set out in the Fourth Geneva Convention, requires such a commitment.

Although, by some US considerations the formal occupation of Iraq ended on June 28, 2004, to the extent that the United States and other foreign troops operating in Iraq continue to wield effective control over Iraqis and Iraqi
property, they are bound by this body of laws. As the International Criminal Tribunal - Yugoslavia noted in the Tadic case mentioned above, the Fourth Geneva Convention “does not make its applicability dependent on formal bonds and purely legal relations. . . . Article 4 [of that Convention] intends to look to the substance of relations, not to their legal characterisation as such.”

It is certainly your privilege to play around with technical definitions, but my application of the term "occupation" is both appropriate and de facto founded in International Law and common parlance understandings.
 
I thought the goal was to give another reason to thwart Democratic attempts to end the occupation and begin drawing down forces?

Would those be the same Democrats that took over the Congress and the Senate and proved that they were merely paying lip service to people like you who voted for them?

Cindy Sheehan's challenge to Nancy Pelosi's congressional seat is the perfect example.
 
Would those be the same Democrats that took over the Congress and the Senate and proved that they were merely paying lip service to people like you who voted for them?

Ain't it a shame when politicians, turn out to be politicians, regardless of what letter they sport after their name?! Its precisely this type of duplicitous action that led to me severing my ties with the Republican party back in '94, and make me glad that I never registered as a Democrat, even after the Shrubling and his henchmen made such so attractive an option.
 
Would those be the same Democrats that took over the Congress and the Senate and proved that they were merely paying lip service to people like you who voted for them?
There's also the fact the Republican president still has a veto and isn't afraid to use it. Although the congress is controlled by the Democrats, they can't muster the votes needed to override a presidential veto. So for now they play safe. The situation would change with a democratic president in the White House.
 
There's also the fact the Republican president still has a veto and isn't afraid to use it. Although the congress is controlled by the Democrats, they can't muster the votes needed to override a presidential veto. So for now they play safe. The situation would change with a democratic president in the White House.

The only Dem that was going to call for immediate pull out of troops from Iraq was Kucinich. Obama has said he would take the advice of the Pentagon before making any drastic changes in Iraq. So how again are the Dems going to make good on their hollow promise of ending American involvement in Iraq RQS? Unless Cindy Sheehan wins as a write in candidate, any new president will immediately realize the ramifications of stripping Iraq of American troops just to appease the far left.
 
Would those be the same Democrats that took over the Congress and the Senate and proved that they were merely paying lip service to people like you who voted for them?

Cindy Sheehan's challenge to Nancy Pelosi's congressional seat is the perfect example.

That's it? That's your response to the substance discussing the military and geopolitical realities of Iraq? Political three card monte and the start of the inevitable "laundry list argument"? Why cut your list short instead of mentioning Ted Kennedy, Michael Moore and George Clooney as well?
 
Umm... the quote in question contains the phrase, "sufficient progress". The word "sufficient" seems to be getting ignored, but I suspect it's at the heart of what Petraeus was talking about. Not sufficient for what? For the Iraqis to stand on their own? Yeah, I'd say that hasn't happened yet. Not sufficient to say that the surge isn't a failure, as Joe claims? I'm afraid there's no basis for reaching that conclusion from Petraeus's quote.

And if I'm not mistaken the thread's title is rather meh and judging by the OP's citations it's not the surge that's failing, but the Iraqis themselves / Iraqi gov.
 
That's it? That's your response to the substance discussing the military and geopolitical realities of Iraq? Political three card monte and the start of the inevitable "laundry list argument"? Why cut your list short instead of mentioning Ted Kennedy, Michael Moore and George Clooney as well?

Naturally pointing out the impotency of the Democrats in congress does not address the "geopolitical realities" like your inane puns "kyackingly" and "walkonwateringly," that is an attempt to ridicule those that prefer stability in Iraq.
 
And if I'm not mistaken the thread's title is rather meh and judging by the OP's citations it's not the surge that's failing, but the Iraqis themselves / Iraqi gov.

Why then was the surge needed? This is like blaming the inmates for the existence of concentration camps.
 
Why then was the surge needed?
There is an old adage used when coaching tennis:

Never change a winning game plan, always change a losing game plan.

Whatever was going on before this surge was not working, in terms of achieveing the political objectives. See above adage. A different course of action was adopted in an attempt to change the success rate of political aims. (Publicly, one of the political aims is the implementation of democracy, whatever form that is to take, in Iraq. Another aim is to keep Iraq in one piece, rather than see it break three, four, or five parts.)

If the people who live in Iraq don't buy into the aims, or convince themselves that those aims are to their benefit, one can argue that such aims have little to no hope of being achieved, and certainly not within a short (two to five years) time frame.

As a sales job for convincing a critical mass of people in Iraq to buy into that vision, this Surge does not seem to have, in the time frame alloted, achieved that. Since I can't mind read the collective sentiments of the diverse populace of Iraq, I am not sure what sales job would work. If people identify by tribe nationality most strongly, it takes a significant outside threat to convince them to merge tribal priorities and work collectively. The Kurdish example alone shows that such an outside threat is not apparent to the bulk of the people of Iraq.

The valid question to ask any of the strategists in Washington is:

Now what?

DR
 
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<<<Petraeus, who is preparing to testify to Congress next month on the Iraq war, said in an interview that "no one" in the U.S. and Iraqi governments "feels that there has been sufficient progress by any means in the area of national reconciliation," or in the provision of basic public services.>>>


Will there be a discount NYT General Betray-us Sucks celebratory ad if the enemy wins? I can't wait.
 
Why then was the surge needed? This is like blaming the inmates for the existence of concentration camps.

The surge was needed to get a (better) grip on the situation and have "more boots on the ground" to do establish better security in Baghdad and the al Anbar province, if I'm not mistaken.

Alas, many Iraqis are prone to people like Sadr, who seems to be keen on transforming Iraq into a purely Islamic state and promote the targeting of US material, both people and armour. Not to mention al Qaeda, which hopefully is on the run and is having problems with the local residents as mentioned in a NY Times article.

Which all could be said runs contrary to a majority of the people who have voted for a somewhat democracy and what the US is pushing together with the current Iraqi government.
 
This is like blaming the inmates for the existence of concentration camps.

I don't know why you had to whip out concentration camps in this matter, but if you see it that way. I don't. Or are you suggesting the Iraqi people and the government is powerless and can't change their "concentration camp"?
 
Naturally pointing out the impotency of the Democrats in congress does not address the "geopolitical realities" like your inane puns "kyackingly" and "walkonwateringly," that is an attempt to ridicule those that prefer stability in Iraq.

1 - Those were not puns, those were bitter sarcasm.
2 - The primest example of inane in this discussion:
Would those be the same Democrats that took over the Congress and the Senate and proved that they were merely paying lip service to people like you who voted for them?

Cindy Sheehan's challenge to Nancy Pelosi's congressional seat is the perfect example.

3 - I take that back, this is:
It has a legal definition you know, and by that definition Iraq has not been occupied since June 2004. That was when Iraq was handed over to the Iraqis.

Per the Geneva Conventions, Iraq is no longer occupied.
 

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