Patents and the Internet

[Francesca R]

Nope Francesca, it is NOT confirmation bias if you are talking about an hypothetical scenario, that said, I'm not sure about what you say about "maximizing my expected visibility in relevant circles", but yes, the conundrum here is about if it is needed to protect something that it is not yet generating money.

Since you posted in "Economics, Business and Finance" rather than "Fairytales, Your-wish-WILL-come-true and Ego-boosts", that is the nature of the answer I am giving you. The following assumptions are the most likely:

1--You do not have the next You Tube, so rule that daft idea out. The chances are next to nothing.
2--Paying over the odds for protection that is none of necessary, helpful nor effective is silly
3--There is a low-cost / potential high gain way for you to dissemminate your idea (and thus your ability) which would work well if it proves popular and you are not a one-trick-pony.

And that is to push it out there, say it's yours (loudly) and that anyone can have it and share it for free, because that is what you will be doing (so nobody will be able to benefit except users), but you'd love it if they mentioned where its source is.

If you want to believe in something fanciful, go elsewhere and do it. This place is for scepticism.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

If you want to believe in something fanciful, go elsewhere and do it. This place is for scepticism.

LOL Francesca!!!! what on earth are you talking about???? believe in what?? All I'm doing here is asking for advice, I do not claim and have never claimed to have the next youtube you silly. If you knew me you would know that I'm a skeptic, but if you don't have the time nor the interest to find out STOP ASSUMING I'm believing or claiming or stating well... whatever you believe I believe, ok??

 

[AvarianParakeet]

Well...it's a little hard to describe your defense with such a vague idea. If someone blatantly rips off your website and violates your inherent copyright, then you are protected. You might not be able to practically sue them, but you could file a DMCA violation with Google. If you are telling the truth and the records show that they are violating your rights, then their website will be delisted from Google. You can do similar things with Yahoo and MSN (I believe) and have their website effectively dead in the water. This should count for design, coding, and writing. I had to learn this as a freelance writer. Always know how to hurt the people who cheat you .

The hazy area is with a general application. The problem with a Youtube or a MySpace is that it's really easy to code (For an experienced programmer). It's really easy to make a knock off from scratch, and there's not really anything that you could do. They made the coding themselves and it is probably slightly different from yours.

The main practical defense would be for you to stay on top of the game. Google is still on top because no one has been able to completely crack their algorithm . They also change it periodically and improve it to stay ahead of the game. If you truly have a unique idea, then you would have first blood in the market. Any decent businessman should be able to maintain the advantage and at least remain popular for the run of the fad. If someone pushes out a ripoff of your website, then you just have to make it better and reward your fans.

Just my 2 cents though

 

[Francesca R]

LOL Francesca!!!! what on earth are you talking about???? believe in what?? All I'm doing here is asking for advice, I do not claim and have never claimed to have the next youtube you silly. If you knew me you would know that I'm a skeptic, but if you don't have the time nor the interest to find out STOP ASSUMING I'm believing or claiming or stating well... whatever you believe I believe, ok??

Special pleading noted and disregarded. I know enough from this thread that you are not asking for advice, but asking to be told what you want to hear. Odd place to post for that.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Well...it's a little hard to describe your defense with such a vague idea.

Sorry about that, the patent attorney told me not to discuss the core idea over the internet.. if this is being paranoid or just being a patent attorney I don't know, but it doesn't hurt not to disclose anything else in here

If someone blatantly rips off your website and violates your inherent copyright, then you are protected. You might not be able to practically sue them, but you could file a DMCA violation with Google. If you are telling the truth and the records show that they are violating your rights, then their website will be delisted from Google. You can do similar things with Yahoo and MSN (I believe) and have their website effectively dead in the water. This should count for design, coding, and writing. I had to learn this as a freelance writer. Always know how to hurt the people who cheat you .

Wow this is good info! Now, you don't mention a patent here, just a copyright, and maybe all I need is this copyright, which on the other hand would be cheaper. Will consult it with my attorney (he appears to be biased about that a patent is of capital importance, that's why I came here to ask).

The hazy area is with a general application. The problem with a Youtube or a MySpace is that it's really easy to code (For an experienced programmer). It's really easy to make a knock off from scratch, and there's not really anything that you could do. They made the coding themselves and it is probably slightly different from yours.

Agreed, this is why I got interested in a patent in the first place.

The main practical defense would be for you to stay on top of the game. Google is still on top because no one has been able to completely crack their algorithm . They also change it periodically and improve it to stay ahead of the game. If you truly have a unique idea, then you would have first blood in the market. Any decent businessman should be able to maintain the advantage and at least remain popular for the run of the fad. If someone pushes out a ripoff of your website, then you just have to make it better and reward your fans.

Agreed, thanks for a valuable post.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Special pleading noted and disregarded. I know enough from this thread that you are not asking for advice, but asking to be told what you want to hear. Odd place to post for that.

I was going to ignore this, but I'm curious... what do I want to hear?

 

[Francesca R]

Do you know what? I keep thinking this thread is "Parents and the internet", and imagine you are asking about getting around safe-content filters.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I have no idea what are you talking about, you have made a couple of good points, thank you for that, as for the rest, you don't seem to like something about me, but this is your problem, and it is certainly beyond the goal of the thread. So please keep it for yourself.

 

[AvarianParakeet]

Like I said, I think you can think of a website a bit like a book. (I hope I'm right on this one. I was always on the content creation side of websites, not the webmaster side). If you wrote a travel guide on good places to fish somewhere, then you couldn't sue someone for writing another guide unless they actually stole the information from you in some way. Even that might be a gray area.

Concepts are notoriously hard to defend when it comes to the Internet and patents have been very hit or miss. Your lawyer is right to be pretty cautious.

The reason I responded was actually because I'd just heard of a case involving MMORPG's. An old company filed a patent for 3D social games in 2000 and they're trying to claim infringement by basically every modern MMORPG. Things get really vague when it comes to technology and what can be patented. Your lawyer would probably know best on the subject though.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3172094

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

The reason I responded was actually because I'd just heard of a case involving MMORPG's. An old company filed a patent for 3D social games in 2000 and they're trying to claim infringement by basically every modern MMORPG. Things get really vague when it comes to technology and what can be patented. Your lawyer would probably know best on the subject though.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3172094

Thank you, very valuable answer.


To all:

I believe I know the best course of action now, thanks for all the answers.

 

[lomiller]

Web site patents typically involve process. For example “one click shopping” is patented. (I don’t recall if it was ever found to be an enforceable patent.) Content is covered under copyright which is a much stronger form of protection then a patent.

Even if you have a patent on some device (which is what patents typically cover, business processes are a much more recent type of patent) all it really grants you is the ability to take infringers to court. Not only does the court get to decide if the person infringed or not they get to decide if the patent is enforceable, which could happen for any number of reasons.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Web site patents typically involve process. For example “one click shopping” is patented. (I don’t recall if it was ever found to be an enforceable patent.) Content is covered under copyright which is a much stronger form of protection then a patent.

Even if you have a patent on some device (which is what patents typically cover, business processes are a much more recent type of patent) all it really grants you is the ability to take infringers to court. Not only does the court get to decide if the person infringed or not they get to decide if the patent is enforceable, which could happen for any number of reasons.

Yes, my patent would be to protect a system, a method and a business process. The content is in part generated by a team and in part by the users, and yes we can stipulate that in the member agreement that they automatically gives us the rights on their content.

Still, it is your last sentence what got me thinking, if a court has the last word regarding about your rights, it is matter of how deep are your pockets more than about who is "right", and unless a big corporation was interested in buying us (which would be essentially a gamble even if the project becomes a success) it doesn't seem very intelligent to do so.

I'm sticking to a solution that covers the most variables for the lesser cost, if this becomes profitable I can revise and implement protections as the project advances.

Thanks.

 

[Horatius]

Still, it is your last sentence what got me thinking, if a court has the last word regarding about your rights, it is matter of how deep are your pockets more than about who is "right", and unless a big corporation was interested in buying us (which would be essentially a gamble even if the project becomes a success) it doesn't seem very intelligent to do so.

Well, the Courts will try to interpret the patent in a fair manner, so it's not so much a matter of how deep your pockets are, but how good the court is at understanding the patent/technology you are working with. But yes, sometimes they come out of left field and make very odd decisions.

I'm sticking to a solution that covers the most variables for the lesser cost, if this becomes profitable I can revise and implement protections as the project advances.

Be careful about waiting too long! Prior public use or publication can be used to bar you from ever getting a patent. Don't think of it as something you can do at any old time. That's why your patent agent doesn't want you discussing the details of you idea online - say the wrong thing, and you might end up blocking your own patent application!

So decide if you want to get the patent before you do anything to publish or publicize your idea. You can start doing things once you've applied for the patent and still be protected, but the filing date of your application is the most important date in the process - potentially, anything before that date could be used against you*.










*There are some countries that have "grace periods" for public disclosures by the original inventor, but not all. In Canada, it's one year. That is, you have up to one year after you first publication anywhere in the world to file for a Canadian Patent. But, better safe than sorry!

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Be careful about waiting too long! Prior public use or publication can be used to bar you from ever getting a patent. Don't think of it as something you can do at any old time. That's why your patent agent doesn't want you discussing the details of you idea online - say the wrong thing, and you might end up blocking your own patent application!

So decide if you want to get the patent before you do anything to publish or publicize your idea. You can start doing things once you've applied for the patent and still be protected, but the filing date of your application is the most important date in the process - potentially, anything before that date could be used against you*.

Thanks, yes I have been instructed in to what to do and what not to do, but still in my mind there is this splinter about the very need of going for it, specially since it is not cheap at all. The only way to justify the cost would be if it could be considered an investment, but with the Internet and its global nature, a local patent does not seem to be an investment.