Past death

[JLam]

I just recently came to the realization that death is exactly the same as the time before you were born. In essence, I've been dead before, and I'll be dead again. It will be exactly the same. My life is just a happy abberation.

This has really eased my fear of death.

I'm not really articulating myself well, but I hope people will understand what I'm getting at.

 

[username]

I just recently came to the realization that death is exactly the same as the time before you were born. In essence, I've been dead before, and I'll be dead again. It will be exactly the same. My life is just a happy abberation.

This has really eased my fear of death.

I'm not really articulating myself well, but I hope people will understand what I'm getting at.

Buddhists do ;-)

 

[toddjh]

I think a lot of people's fear of death is predicated on a logical fallacy called "reification of the zero." Even though the term was first coined by Ayn Rand, it's still a legitimate fallacy: the idea of treating the absence of something as a positive entity.

In this case, treating death as something people experience. I hear people say things like, "It'll just be so sad after I'm dead!", like they'll just be floating around in endless nothingness going, "Man, does this ever SUCK!" You'll be gone and there won't be anybody to do the experiencing. Like you say, it'll be just like before you were born.

I don't fear being dead. I fear dying. There seem to be three main options: either it's unpleasant (as in a long illness, such a cancer), or it's premature (as in getting killed suddenly in a car crash), or both. Plus I feel bad that my loved ones will have to deal with it.

Jeremy

 

[ned flandas]

I think Jesus said something about this..

 

[kuroyume0161]

My only 'fear' of death is that of missing the future. We live a life of expectations and discovery and desire that we are alive when they come to fruition. It causes a pang to think that one day humans may do this or overcome that and you may not be there to experience it. But then one realizes that this is the cycle of life. We are no nearer to immortality then we were ten thousand years ago (just a little longer lived).

This is why I think that so much stock is placed on longetivity through progeneration. Even though you will not live to experience these things, your descendents might. This is a good reason for long-term future planning and reduction of unneeded suffering. We impose our 'dreams' and aspirations on future generations so that they may attain the fruits which were not plucked during our lives.

I don't fear dying - it is inevitable and the causes are almost always unavoidable. I just dislike the discontinuation of experience. One has to reconcile oneself with that inevitability in order to reduce the stress it causes.

We should not berate ourselves if we cannot achieve, say, Einstein-level accomplishments in life. For it is in every action that we construct our future. Find the discipline with which you command the greatest skill and make your mark, as insignificant as it seems. The glossiness of history may not put a banner under your name, but you may impart some direction into the future that, even anonymous, adjoins you into history's unfolding.

 

[toddjh]

We are no nearer to immortality then we were ten thousand years ago (just a little longer lived).

I'm not sure if this is true. At the rate things are going, it wouldn't surprise me if they discovered a way to prevent aging, if not in our lifetimes, then not long past them.

But if you're listening, research biologists, if you could manage it in the next, oh, 40 or so years, that would be GREAT!

Jeremy

 

[MRC_Hans]

My only 'fear' of death is that of missing the future. We live a life of expectations and discovery and desire that we are alive when they come to fruition. *snip*
*snip*

However, this is still the same basic fallacy: You won't be missing anything, because that implies a consciousness of not participating. You can look back at life and say "gang, I missed being at Woodstock in '86", or whatever, but when you are dead, you won't be thinking "dang, I didn't get to see .....". You won't be thinking at all.

Hans

 

[El Greco]

I'm not sure if this is true. At the rate things are going, it wouldn't surprise me if they discovered a way to prevent aging, if not in our lifetimes, then not long past them.

But if you're listening, research biologists, if you could manage it in the next, oh, 40 or so years, that would be GREAT!

Not that great. Aging prevention when I'm already aged wouldn't be so fascinating, especially since the world would soon become full of young and healthy women. Now, if they could manage it in the next 40 months, that would be GREAT!

 

[toddjh]

Not that great. Aging prevention when I'm already aged wouldn't be so fascinating, especially since the world would soon become full of young and healthy women. Now, if they could manage it in the next 40 months, that would be GREAT!

Yeah, but if they can do it in time to stop you from dying of old age, well, that buys you time until they can figure out how to reverse it, or transplant your consciousness into a hot VinDieselBot or something.

Jeremy

 

[kuroyume0161]

However, this is still the same basic fallacy: You won't be missing anything, because that implies a consciousness of not participating. You can look back at life and say "gang, I missed being at Woodstock in '86", or whatever, but when you are dead, you won't be thinking "dang, I didn't get to see .....". You won't be thinking at all.

Hans

I agree that anything missed... won't be missed. It's just the potential that is missed beforehand. This is certainly an attribute applied while living and not one expected at the onset of death...

 

[kuroyume0161]

I'm not sure if this is true. At the rate things are going, it wouldn't surprise me if they discovered a way to prevent aging, if not in our lifetimes, then not long past them.

But if you're listening, research biologists, if you could manage it in the next, oh, 40 or so years, that would be GREAT!

Jeremy

Although there are inroads to understanding mortality, I don't think we have quite established a means to extend life to two hundred years yet let alone two hundred thousand! It may or not happen. This is the grand mystery of the future. Only those existent at the time of the discovery and implementation will reap the fruits of the endeavor.

Never follow rates. Rates are things that show instantaneous information but not definite future directions. We cannot disseminate the future any more than physics can converse with the dearly departed!

 

[toddjh]

Never follow rates. Rates are things that show instantaneous information but not definite future directions. We cannot disseminate the future any more than physics can converse with the dearly departed!

Rates aren't completely meaningless, though. There are limits on the accuracy, but saying that extrapolating from past trends is no better than taking a wild guess is silly.

We're making huge advances in science, and biology looks set to be one of the next big frontiers as we get better computer models. If immortality is possible, it's not unreasonable to think it may be discovered in relatively short order.

Jeremy

 

[kuroyume0161]

Rates aren't completely meaningless, though. There are limits on the accuracy, but saying that extrapolating from past trends is no better than taking a wild guess is silly.

We're making huge advances in science, and biology looks set to be one of the next big frontiers as we get better computer models. If immortality is possible, it's not unreasonable to think it may be discovered in relatively short order.

Jeremy

My hopping friend , I agree. Trends do signify something and should not be dismissed. And I donot dismiss the possibilities. I just caution that trends are finicky. Stock markets may show a continual rise only to plummet at the slightest upset. This is chaotic behavior at its best. We cannot expect that we will, certainly, discover a means to continually extend longetivity. We can expect, potentially, to discover means to extend longetivity. Note the difference.

To be facetious, we should not take stock that such innovations are shortcoming. We can only hope thus. Until the actuality, we are doomed to the inevitability of our limited existence and must face it realistically.

One must note that even if we could find the 'elixir of life' - the philosopher's stone as it were - is there any guarantee against death in failures other than bodily function - such as accident or natural catastrophe? It is assured that expedience would play a critical role in transferring vital information to continue the mind that was the deceased's.

 

[toddjh]

To be facetious, we should not take stock that such innovations are shortcoming. We can only hope thus.

Oh, absolutely. But I think there's more reason to be hopeful at this point in history than in any other. Great advances are on the horizon in many areas.

One must note that even if we could find the 'elixir of life' - the philosopher's stone as it were - is there any guarantee against death in failures other than bodily function - such as accident or natural catastrophe?

Yeah, I was thinking about that too. Are heart attacks and strokes an effect of aging at the cellular level, or are they simply the result of the body having existed long enough for arteries to get clogged and blood pressure to rise? I have no idea, but my gut feeling is that the elixir of life wouldn't prevent a lot of those health problems we traditionally associated with old age.

Jeremy

 

[kuroyume0161]

And I am hopeful. I don't think that I will 'survive' long enough to see the potential extension of longevity. But the consequences for later generations is spectacular! Imagine, despite the systemic limitations, being able to go on for thousands of years. One would be able to traverse part of the known galaxy within a 'lifetime'.

Plus, although no system can probably be extended indefinitely, we could by way of temporality, sit down and thrash out solutions to hard problems by way of continual erosion. We would no longer be limited to passing problem from generation to generation- with its inherent learning process - but continue to advance towards significant solutions. This continuity may have profound affects on the longetivity and viability of the species (as it evolves).

Let's hope that longetivity is not a stopper to evolution and vice versa!

 

[JLam]

My only 'fear' of death is that of missing the future. We live a life of expectations and discovery and desire that we are alive when they come to fruition. It causes a pang to think that one day humans may do this or overcome that and you may not be there to experience it. But then one realizes that this is the cycle of life. We are no nearer to immortality then we were ten thousand years ago (just a little longer lived).

This is why I think that so much stock is placed on longetivity through progeneration. Even though you will not live to experience these things, your descendents might. This is a good reason for long-term future planning and reduction of unneeded suffering. We impose our 'dreams' and aspirations on future generations so that they may attain the fruits which were not plucked during our lives.

I don't fear dying - it is inevitable and the causes are almost always unavoidable. I just dislike the discontinuation of experience. One has to reconcile oneself with that inevitability in order to reduce the stress it causes.

We should not berate ourselves if we cannot achieve, say, Einstein-level accomplishments in life. For it is in every action that we construct our future. Find the discipline with which you command the greatest skill and make your mark, as insignificant as it seems. The glossiness of history may not put a banner under your name, but you may impart some direction into the future that, even anonymous, adjoins you into history's unfolding.

Nominated.

 

[Mojo]

However, this is still the same basic fallacy: You won't be missing anything, because that implies a consciousness of not participating.

But I want to see how it turns out...

 

[Dogdoctor]

I guess I am quite different from most people. I have never had a healthy respect for death. I have always been very willing to face it whenever. I used to have nothing to live for and now I have nothing holding me back. Many people were surprised I made it to 18 and now I am 52. When I applied for college my parents were more amazed I was alive than in college. Having almost died a few times, it never seemed to stop me from risking it all again. These days however my challenges are of a different nature more mental than physical so I don't really risk my life much. Still I look at the concept of death with no apprehension at all. In a way it is like Jlam said and it is just like birth. All a part of life. You are born, you live, you die. Nothing to fear about it. I believe I have natural instincts that keep me from dying so thought about it is unnecessary.
Edited to add: My parents made me go see a shrink because they thought I was trying to kill myself. I pointed out to them if I wanted to do that I would be dead. They thought it might be attention getting behavior but really it was all about adrenalin. Anyway the shrinks couldn't find anything wrong with me but still it was fun to talk to them and see what questions they ask etc.

 

[John Bentley]

Plus, although no system can probably be extended indefinitely, we could by way of temporality, sit down and thrash out solutions to hard problems by way of continual erosion. We would no longer be limited to passing problem from generation to generation- with its inherent learning process - but continue to advance towards significant solutions.

I remember reading a sci-fi book -- can't remember which one -- in which the aliens had achieved the means for immortality, but had given it up because it essentially stifled any new thought or ideas. I think they settled for lifespans in the thousands of years or so.

I can see where that would be a problem. Think how hard it would be to go back to square one on a problem if you spent several hundred years going up a promising blind alley, leading all your aging grad students along with you. Would you scrap everything and start over, or would you keep butting your head against the same old wall?