Passenger killed by air marshall

I hadn't realized we slipped back on topic or I would have paid more attention

Speaking as someone who is bi-polar and on medication, if I ever act in a suspicious and threatening manner in a similar situation I would have only myself to blame.
Thank you for volunteering that. I did not know how much or how little control someone who is bi-polar really has over themselves. Those people I have known who were bi-polar have all had out-of-control episodes at one time or another. Would you say the degree of your condition is typical?

Personally I’m curious to see what this person actually said and did in the situation, since that is all which should matter in judging the correctness of the marshals’ actions.
Yes. I am often told that people with hammers tend to see all problems as nails.
 
Not necessarily. You could interpret “creator” to be literally those that created you, your mom and dad. Thus your “creator” endows you with inalienable rights simply by bringing you into this world. It’s entirely consistent with the idea of having rights simply because you are human and alive.

Evidence?
 
Oh for Ed's sake!

"A document written by the governing bodies of the USA" is an "official US document".
No governing bodies of the USA wrote the Declaration of Independence because there was no USA when the Declaration of Independence was written. The Declaration of Independence was written by British Colonists. The USA did not officially form until adoption of the Articles of Confederation in 1777 which were ultimately replaced by the United States Constitution in 1788. The actual rights therein were not secured, defined, or provided for until 1791 with no mention of any supernatural being. The Declaration of Independence has no legally binding power.

Given that the writers of the DOI were of the Enlightenment, it's most likely that the only reason the term "Creator" was included at all was as a rhetorical device imparting the fundamental innateness of their unalienable rights. You, for whatever reason, are taking it literally. Do you think they also literally "dissolved" a physical bond that was holding them to England? Do you think they were saying that prudence, personified, actually came to them and dictated "Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes"?
 
The old-fashioned non-suicide bombing is still an option for terrorists, isn't it? Smuggle in a bomb (I'd bet there's still holes a mile wide in airport security, such as in deliveries to the many stores/restaurants in the secure area of the terminal), get it on the plane and then run off. Maybe then blow yourself up in the crowded terminal, who knows? Terrorists can come up w/ some imaginative plans.

I think your imagination beats theirs because your plans aren't constrained by practicality.

If a terrorist planted a bomb on a plane quietly and successfully, why would they then run around like a mentally disturbed person telling everyone they had another bomb? Even if they then succeeded in killing a lot of people with their hypothetical suicide bomb, the plane they had just been on would be grounded and evacuated immediately.

If they wanted to get off the plane they would just have to complain that they feel sick or they just remembered the locked the cat in the cupboard or something.

As I said earlier, by any sane standards an airport is a very safe place because it has extraordinary security compared to other public places that would be equally effective terrorist targets. A plane in flight is a different kettle of fish, but on the ground there is no excuse for excessive trigger-happiness just because planes are in the neighbourhood. That's cargo cult thinking.

If this keeps the mentally unstable off planes, that's a bonus. Like that French woman who wanted to step out to have a cigarette... while the plane was in flight.

You missed the boat on a little thing we are working on called "civilisation". These days it's not acceptable to tout excluding the mentally disabled from society as a worthy goal in and of itself. That kind of bigotry belongs in the past.
 
I think your imagination beats theirs because your plans aren't constrained by practicality.

If a terrorist planted a bomb on a plane quietly and successfully, why would they then run around like a mentally disturbed person telling everyone they had another bomb? Even if they then succeeded in killing a lot of people with their hypothetical suicide bomb, the plane they had just been on would be grounded and evacuated immediately.
So, if someone says they have a bomb it should automatically be assumed they don't have one? And should be allowed to run into the crowded terminal?
 
Any evidence for metaphysical rights?

But that's not the point; for all we know it might be true that there is no (metaphysical) thing such as human rights at all.

The point of the appeal to the "creator" or the the fact that men are "born" with certain rights is not so much to establish a metaphysical claim, but to put the government on notice that, whatever the source of human rights is (if any), it is not the government. They could have appealed, as the originator of human rights, instead of the creator, to human nature, or mother earth, or Yog-Shoggoth, for all the difference it makes in that respect.

I cannot prove to you that, metaphysically speaking, anybody really has a right to anything, even to life itself. But that hardly means that anyobdy--including the government--has the right to claim that, since it is impossible for you to prove you have a metaphysical right to life, then such a right is really given (as opposed to protected, or cared for) by the government, any more than I can claim that in reality, since you cannot prove you have a right to life, you really only live because I, Skeptic, allow you to. That is simply a non-sequitor.

You might ask, "Well, what difference does it make if the government gives you the right to life or not, when it is the one which protects it in practice?". But ask yourself if you are willing to have the bank formally own the money in your savings account, as long as it promises to let you use it, and you'll see the difference between "giving" and "protecting".

First, I would say that even if the banks were 100% honest and really did let you use the money they now "own" in exactly the same way you do now, when you own it, there are important metaphysical and psychological differences between thinking yourself the owner of your money and thinking yourself the charge of the banks, given money from them as a child would get pocket money; similarly there is a deep difference between being, metaphysically, the government's masters, when it protects rights we have, or the government's children, to be taken care after by being given certain rights. Metaphysics matters: the former position is worthy of men, the latter only of children.

But even without this, the difference in practice is that, among other things, it limits the power of the government. If the government is the giver of the rights, it has the power to take them away as well. There is no basis then for opposing a tyrannical government, at least as long as it treats you comfortably: for since you don't actually have any rights to begin with, you cannot claim you were wronged.

If freedom of speech, right to propety, etc. are given by the government, then they are at mot priviledges, not rights; one might be disappointed at losing them, as one might be disappointed of having one's welfare payments stopped, but one had no real grounds for a grievance. If, on the other hand, the rights our yours to begin with, only given to the govenrment to protect--which is precisely what the declaration of independence says--then if the government stops protecting them, then you have the right to fight against it. It may not do as it pleases with them.
 
BTW, al Qaeda is taking notes on the marshal's response in this situation. Anyone else notice that both air marshals ran off the plane chasing after the man? Leaving the plane unprotected and vulnerable to the "create a diversion" technique popular w/ criminals the world over.
 
A plane in flight is a different kettle of fish, but on the ground there is no excuse for excessive trigger-happiness just because planes are in the neighbourhood. That's cargo cult thinking.


I don't agree that the marshalls were "trigger happy". And there were many people in danger of this supposed bomb.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-12-08-marshals-defense_x.htm

There are many who testify that this guy did actually say he had a bomb as well.

Sorry, but a guy who threatens the lives of many people should be dealt with accordingly. Put yourself in the shoes of the sky marshalls, a guy yells " i have a bomb" and then runs through people and reaches into his pack wouldn't be a good time to wait and see what happens.
 
BTW, al Qaeda is taking notes on the marshal's response in this situation. Anyone else notice that both air marshals ran off the plane chasing after the man? Leaving the plane unprotected and vulnerable to the "create a diversion" technique popular w/ criminals the world over.

How do you know there weren't other people at the plane to protect the plane? Some cockpit officers have an additional requirement of carrying a firearm to provide security, after all.
 
So, if someone says they have a bomb it should automatically be assumed they don't have one? And should be allowed to run into the crowded terminal?

There you go, using logic and common sense again. Don't you get it, Wildcat? The Air Marshalls were STUPID AND TRIGGER HAPPY, and that's, well, that. Kevin had determined this psychically, from his armchair 10,000 miles away, using nothing more than google searches and his powerful logic.

You can't argue with genius--Kevin is, after all, the man who exposed the stealing of Ohio in the presidential elections using nothing but internet searched and his powerful brain, too.
 
So, if someone says they have a bomb it should automatically be assumed they don't have one?

Firstly, you are helping yourself to the assumption the man actually claimed to have a bomb. Eyewitnesses dispute that.

But even is someone did say they had a bomb, should it automatically be assumed they do? We should not go shooting people unless they are credibly presenting a threat, and a bipolar man who has been through several layers of security screening who says something about a bomb is not making a credible threat.

And should be allowed to run into the crowded terminal?

If people running on and off planes with a bomb is a credible security threat then there should be security guards at one or both ends of the loading corridor. Fortunately it isn't.

Get serious, Wildcat. Real terrorists who for some bizarre reason want to blow up a departure lounge will enter an airport through the front door and hide a bomb in a garbage can, or hide it on their person and detonate it without fanfare. Real terrorists won't even blow up a departure lounge at all though, since the security level is high and the reward low compared to other available targets. They will target a plane if they try anything at an airport whatsoever.

They absolutely will not walk on and off planes through repeated searches and security checks with a suicide bomb in their carry-on luggage the whole time, then freak out on board a plane attracting everyone's attention, then run out of the plane into the lounge area to explode themselves.

Don't buy in to the culture of fear that says that every flower pot conceals an Al Qaeda fanatic with a dirty bomb and that only armed troops with a license to kill on a split-second misunderstanding can keep us safe. We can do without that kind of safety very well thank you.
 
Firstly, you are helping yourself to the assumption the man actually claimed to have a bomb. Eyewitnesses dispute that.

No, they don't.

But even is someone did say they had a bomb, should it automatically be assumed they do?

Yes.

If people running on and off planes with a bomb is a credible security threat then there should be security guards at one or both ends of the loading corridor. Fortunately it isn't.

You wanna flip the bill for this extra security? What if a person declares they have a bomb and go to the bathroom, should there be security people in all bathrooms?

Get serious, Wildcat. Real terrorists who for some bizarre reason want to blow up a departure lounge will enter an airport through the front door and hide a bomb in a garbage can, or hide it on their person and detonate it without fanfare. Real terrorists won't even blow up a departure lounge at all though, since the security level is high and the reward low compared to other available targets. They will target a plane if they try anything at an airport whatsoever.

Ahh, the "real" terrorist argument. Are they related to "true scotsmen"?

Try some critical thinking, it would do you good.
 
Oh for Ed's sake!

Taketh not thy Creator's name in vain!

No governing bodies of the USA wrote the Declaration of Independence because there was no USA when the Declaration of Independence was written. The Declaration of Independence was written by British Colonists. The USA did not officially form until adoption of the Articles of Confederation in 1777 which were ultimately replaced by the United States Constitution in 1788. The actual rights therein were not secured, defined, or provided for until 1791 with no mention of any supernatural being. The Declaration of Independence has no legally binding power.

Nevertheless, it was the starting point from which all subsequent documents were formed. I haven't seen any recantations of the DoI. Are they not called "The Charters of Freedom"?

Given that the writers of the DOI were of the Enlightenment, it's most likely that the only reason the term "Creator" was included at all was as a rhetorical device imparting the fundamental innateness of their unalienable rights.

No, no, no. Not "most likely". You guys have had over 200 years to work this out. I know that you discuss these three papers incessantly, not just here, but during your education, and And still, you haven't found out what your country is built on.

You, for whatever reason, are taking it literally. Do you think they also literally "dissolved" a physical bond that was holding them to England? Do you think they were saying that prudence, personified, actually came to them and dictated "Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes"?

You bet I'm taking it literally. Why shouldn't I? I am told to take the 2nd Amendment literally, so why not this? Just what parts should we take literally and which are up for whatever interpretation we like?

This is reminiscent of when we argue with Creationist Bible Literalists: Which parts do we take literally, and which parts do we interpret to our own understanding?

See the similarity? Eerie, isn't it?
 
Ok let's see here...

Nevertheless, it was the starting point from which all subsequent documents were formed.
Wrong.
No, no, no. Not "most likely". You guys have had over 200 years to work this out. I know that you discuss these three papers incessantly, not just here, but during your education, and And still, you haven't found out what your country is built on.
Wrong.
You bet I'm taking it literally. Why shouldn't I? I am told to take the 2nd Amendment literally, so why not this? Just what parts should we take literally and which are up for whatever interpretation we like?
The parts that are the laws of this country. Very easy to follow. Here's an easy example for you. If a President or Senator writes a Christmas card to a leader or some government official of another country, it does become that US government endorces religion. It's simple Diplomatic correspendence.
This is reminiscent of when we argue with Creationist Bible Literalists: Which parts do we take literally, and which parts do we interpret to our own understanding?
Well, for starters I know the laws are real. For instance, if I kill somebody there will be consequences that anyone could see. Thus your analogy is stupid.
See the similarity? Eerie, isn't it?
No. You're just having serious comprehension problems.
 
In an airport, it is.

What is the essential difference between people acting strangely and disobeying orders in an airport (that is, on the ground and not in a flying airplane) and people acting strangely and disobeying orders in some other place with lots of people in one place, like a crowded mall during Christmas shopping? I can't see it.
 

Ah, I see. You say that they started from scratch, with absolutely no eye on the DoI, when they wrote the Constitution.

Rrrrright.


Ah, I see. You say that there's absolutely nothing to discuss wrt these documents. Everyone is perfectly aware of the One and True Interpretation. No lawsuits about e.g. Amendments.

Rrrrright.

The parts that are the laws of this country. Very easy to follow. Here's an easy example for you. If a President or Senator writes a Christmas card to a leader or some government official of another country, it does become that US government endorces religion. It's simple Diplomatic correspendence.

Here's an easy example for you, already given (but ignored, for a very good reason): The 2nd Amendment. Nothing to discuss, eh? It's clear as day?

Well, for starters I know the laws are real. For instance, if I kill somebody there will be consequences that anyone could see. Thus your analogy is stupid.

Not at all. O.J. got away with murder. People are tried for their crimes, they are not merely convicted.

No. You're just having serious comprehension problems.

Not at all. Sometimes, we have to take it literally, and sometimes, we can interpret all we want. Depending on our own stance, of course.
 
No, they don't.
Yes, some did (not sure if they still do) and that's precisely why I wondered how the sky marshall came to the conclusion that he posed a significant threat. If, after the investigation into this situation is completed, the consensus is that the guy did mention he had a bomb, then I feel that the sky marshall probably did the right thing considering the information that was available to him.

If not, then I wonder how the sky marshall came to the conclusion that the man was a significant threat, and how he would go about distinguishing this from someone succumbing to a panic attack or something similar. I also wonder if there's a system in place that informs the sky marshalls about passengers prone to such behavior before a flight.

If there isn't one yet, why not? There are 19 million Americans suffering from some form of depression or anxiety disorder each year, and 35 million more suffering from other forms of mental disorders. If - and I admit this is a big 'if', since it depends on why the sky marshall saw him as a significant threat, and whether he actually claimed he had a bomb - with the introduction of the sky marshall program, flying has actually become less safe for 54 million Americans, what is the net benefit of having sky marshalls?
 
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No, they don't.

Read the damn thread you are posting in, TBK. Some eyewitnesses claim they heard mention of a bomb, some claim that they are certain they heard no such thing.


Here I was thinking that hanging around here for so long you would have picked up a thing or two about skepticism.

You wanna flip the bill for this extra security? What if a person declares they have a bomb and go to the bathroom, should there be security people in all bathrooms?

If people doing so was a security threat that we should be worried about, sure, hire security guards. Since it isn't, we can let that one slide.

Ahh, the "real" terrorist argument. Are they related to "true scotsmen"?

They're the antithesis of straw men. Such as made-up terrorists who can pull bombs out of thin air, and who then flip out and run around making a total spectacle of themselves.

Try some critical thinking, it would do you good.

Try some thinking of any kind, it would do us all some good.
 

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