Passenger killed by air marshall

After the shooting, investigators spread passengers’ bags on the tarmac and let dogs sniff them for explosives, and bomb squad members blew up at least two bags.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10367598/
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I don't know why but I find that darkly funny.
Kill Dorthy... and her little dog Toto too...

HEY WAIT A MINUTE! THAT'S MY BAG!

So, another innocent crazy guy dead. Well that makes me feel safer.

I've read various versions of this story today: He was killed in the plane, getting off he plane, getting on the plane, going to Columbia, coming from Columbia, or from Ecuador.

One version had him saying something suspicious while going past the security check in, and they followed him on the plane and forcefully confronted him on the plane.

I await the whole story, but am fairly confident it will not seem quite so heroic in the final screening.
 
Kopji said:
For the skeptical, listen to the eyewitness account of a plane passenger and see if it sounds anything like the official version to you:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10367598/
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Heh. The skeptical will wait for more than that. That story has the flight originating in Quito, Ecuador instead of Medellin, Colombia (which, for the record, is where AMR flt 924 actually originates, according to travelocity.com -- Quito has its own two daily direct flights to Miami on American), although it has a Colombian bureaucrat talking about the flight leaving normally. It's pretty clear that no one with the title "editor" has reviewed that story as of the time I'm writing about it.
 
Kopji said:
For the skeptical, listen to the eyewitness account of a plane passenger and see if it sounds anything like the official version to you:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10367598/
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If we are to take the HS spokesman's description as the "official version", then there's no inconsistencies that I can see.

A witness said that the man frantically ran down the aisle of the Boeing 757 and that a woman with him said he was mentally ill.

The passenger was confronted by air marshals but ran off the aircraft, Doyle said.

The marshals pursued and ordered the passenger to get on the ground, but the man did not comply and was shot when apparently reaching into the bag, Doyle said.
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How do these two accounts sound "nothing like" each other?
 
In the eyewitness version there is no speaking only running and shooting. Sorry, eyewitness version is audio only and not transcribed. Maybe someone can do it.
 
An abbreviated transcription of the eyewitness.
Now we have a chance to speak with a passenger who was actually on board this plane Mary Gardner a witnessing and hearing the accounts...

...what happened was when I went on there was a lady at the front who was going back and forth, she got a call and was called off the plane initially. She got a phone call, she was frantic they got on the plane and all of a sudden after everyone was sitting down her husband ran through the asile franticly. She ran after him and all of a sudden there were four to five shots...

ibid
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mumblethrax said:
Do you think people who shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater should be summarily executed?
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Taking an action to prevent further immediate harm is not the same as punishment at a later date, well after the action has been committed. That is why a police office killing someone in the line of duty does not equal "execution". It is not a matter of someone saying "Hey, they did this, and killing them is a suitable punishment. I will carry out that punishment now." It is a matter of someone saying "I need to stop this person right now, or more people are going to get hurt."

See the difference?
 
Freakshow said:
Taking an action to prevent further immediate harm is not the same as punishment at a later date, well after the action has been committed. That is why a police office killing someone in the line of duty does not equal "execution". It is not a matter of someone saying "Hey, they did this, and killing them is a suitable punishment. I will carry out that punishment now." It is a matter of someone saying "I need to stop this person right now, or more people are going to get hurt."
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I understand that, but I fail to understand why you're making the distinction between two senses of the word where the action clearly isn't punitive.

I will rephrase the question: Do you think summarily killing someone who is shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater is justified, specifically in order to prevent panic?
 
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mumblethrax said:
I understand that, but I fail to understand why you're making the distinction between two senses of the word where the action clearly isn't punitive.

I will rephrase the question: Do you think summarily killing someone who is shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater is justified, specifically in order to prevent panic?
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No. But if they resist arrest, and suddenly and quickly reach into the inside of their jacket, then the police are justified in shooting them, yes.
 
Don't you see, Freakshow? If they do shoot him (as they in fact did), this just proves the callous indifference of Air Marshalls (and George W. Bush) to the sufferings of the mentally ill. But if they don't shoot him, this just proves the incompetence and waste of Air Marshalls (and George W. Bush), since obviously they "don't really make us any safer". ("Sure he was a mentally ill person this time, but what if he really had a bomb?")
 
Law enforcement officers surrounded the plane after the shooting. Inside, McAlhany said passengers were ordered to crouch under their seats. He said that when he tried to pop up for a look, a flight attendant ordered him to get back down.

He said the man apparently left a backpack on the plane, adding that the other passengers were treated roughly when law enforcement boarded the plane after the shooting.

‘‘They put a gun to the back of my head and said, ‘Put your hands on the seat,’’ he said. ‘‘That was more scary than anything else.’’
He said the passengers were taken off the plane and confined to a conference room ‘‘with a lot of other people.’’

Officials said no bomb or weapon was found on the plane or passengers.
‘‘I don’t know if they shot an innocent man or not,’’ he said. ‘‘I don’t think he was armed or had a bomb, I think he had a mental illness. I don’t think they really had to shoot him, but I hope he didn’t holler something stupid.’’
Miami-Dade police, who are in charge of investigating the shooting, did not comment.
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http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051208/LOCAL/51208013/1078/news
 
Freakshow said:
No. But if they resist arrest, and suddenly and quickly reach into the inside of their jacket, then the police are justified in shooting them, yes.
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Ok, then I was misreading you. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
If they were reading the whines in this thread, the Air Marshalls would probably feel a bit like the White Man in Kipling's "White Man's Burden":

"Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard."

Kipling was on to something.
 
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