Passenger killed by air marshall

One thing that was made abundantly clear after the Brazilian was shot on the London Underground is that what people see and hear under stressful conditions does not necessarily bear any resemblence to what actually happened.

And the same can be said for the initial reports from all involved, including officers...

I agree, though, that this will be a more difficult case because we won't have video/audio to help us sort it out.
 
And the same can be said for the initial reports from all involved, including officers...

I agree, though, that this will be a more difficult case because we won't have video/audio to help us sort it out.

IIRC, every report had him saying, several times, "I've got a bomb". Maybe a part of the selection process for being an air marshall could be a hearing test.
 
I'm sitting in my society, and I have to decide whether or not I'm comfortable giving police officers carte blanche to kill citizens like myself if they think they heard the word "bomb" or I if am dark skinned and I am on a subway.

Yes, we forgot about that.

Luckily the man in question was white and not dark-skinned, or we would hear no end how they really shot him because he was black/Arab-looking, proving the inherent racism of the Air Marshalls.

Of course, now that the man shot was white, does that "prove" to any of our "institutional racism"-sniffers that, maybe, the shooting of both of these people had nothing to do with skin color, but with their behavior?

No, of course not; if a black/Arab man is shot, it "proves" racism, but if a white man, it proves nothing about the lack of racism--it's just that this time they didn't show their "institutional racism".

As for your question: do I feel comfortable giving Air Marshalls the right to shoot on sight anybody who says he has a bomb and starts running on a plane?

You bet I do! Hell, if they don't have that right, they should get fired and replaced with someone who does, pronto! If you don't... well... that's tough, Kevin, but it's one of those rights they must have if they are to actually do their job of protecting people.
 
I agree with what you say about the air marshalls, but it's pretty clear now that the Brazilian shot on the London Underground was only tailed because he walked out of a front door he shared with a terrorism suspect. His behaviour did nothing to indicate he was a danger.
 
It's pretty clear now, but the initial reports had him acting in a manner just as alarming as saying "I've got a bomb". It's just those reports were - apparently - completely incorrect.
 
Yes, we forgot about that.

Luckily the man in question was white and not dark-skinned, or we would hear no end how they really shot him because he was black/Arab-looking, proving the inherent racism of the Air Marshalls.

Of course, now that the man shot was white, does that "prove" to any of our "institutional racism"-sniffers that, maybe, the shooting of both of these people had nothing to do with skin color, but with their behavior?

No, of course not; if a black/Arab man is shot, it "proves" racism, but if a white man, it proves nothing about the lack of racism--it's just that this time they didn't show their "institutional racism".

As for your question: do I feel comfortable giving Air Marshalls the right to shoot on sight anybody who says he has a bomb and starts running on a plane?

You bet I do! Hell, if they don't have that right, they should get fired and replaced with someone who does, pronto! If you don't... well... that's tough, Kevin, but it's one of those rights they must have if they are to actually do their job of protecting people.

Facts please.
The victim (sorry, dead man) was born in Costa Rica so was probably hispanic looking.
That any bomb was mentioned is not substantiated by any witnesses to the event.
 
I have a game I also like to play, and mine is called "I'm a citizen".

I'm sitting in my society, and I have to decide whether or not I'm comfortable giving police officers carte blanche to kill citizens like myself if they think they heard the word "bomb", or I if am dark skinned and I am on a subway.

I ask myself whether I am safer with these guys, who are proven to make tragic mistakes, wandering around on a hair-trigger? Or would I be safer if those guys were on a shorter leash when it came to employing deadly force? What about innocent mentally ill people, drunk people, stupid people, teenagers and so forth who almost certainly outnumber terrorists?

What if, as has been proven in the subway case and may well yet turn out to be true in this case, the killers and their comrades lie like rugs about the circumstances of these incidents to cover up unlawful and unjustified killings?

That's the game called "I'm a citizen". Give it a whirl, Clarsct.

I understand what you are saying. I ask you, what would you do to protect people? Be specific and use this case as an example.
 
So how DO you determine if something has a deterrent effect?
Since that's essentially impossible here, we can't show a deterrent effect. But we can use behavioral models to make reasonable guesses as to what might be a deterrent.

Another is that any security system needs people that think like bad guys. Those are the ones that you need to ask if your deterrence is working. I have seen time and time and time again a system attempt to implement a security policy, work months or years on it, and have it compromised or diverterted for other purposes within days of implementation. Sony's recent CD copy-protection issue is a great example. They very obviously didn't have anyone on that project to give a hacker's perspective.
None of this really shows a deterrent effect. It instead identifies security vulnerabilities. Clearly, installing a rootkit on your customer's computer is an astoundingly bad move (I don't know what Sony was thinking, either), but this is only a deterrent in the most trivially reductive sense (you will if you can, you won't if you can't).

Any hacker worth his salt is taking only minimal risks; a would-be hijacker takes extraordinary risks. The idea with a deterrent is to present a negative motivational factor in the form of an increased perception of risk, so the question is, does having air marshals on board do that?

As I said earlier, I think it's basically impossible to hijack a plane today. You'll have to deal with crew and passengers actively resisting you, get through the reinforced cockpit door, convince the pilot to disobey FAA orders (or kill him if you know how to fly a jet plane), and then you'll probably just get shot down. So I think, putting ourselves in the mind of a terrorist, this strategy sucks. The best result is killing everyone on the plane, so you're better off just blowing it up without exposing yourself to unnecessary risk of failure. It's simple decision analysis.

There's one exception I can think of, and that's if you can kill a few flight attendants and passengers, cow them into compliance, and yell through the door for the pilot to land the plane, you can engineer a hostage situation. If there are marshals on board, this strategy becomes very risky; again, better just to blow the plane up. On the other hand, if there aren't marshals on board, it's a viable strategy, and it works out better for us, since it puts fewer lives at risk.

So from my perspective, and in the absence of evidence to the contrary, it seems like many more air marshals that we previously did puts us at greater risk. I recognize that this is strangely counter-intuitive, and that it's not likely to change anyone's mind.
 
If you shout "I've got a bomb" in any crowded situation, I think you pretty much cancel several of your own civil rights.

I suggest not yelling "I've got a bomb" at the airport. Worth a try, anyway.
 
Of course, now that the man shot was white, does that "prove" to any of our "institutional racism"-sniffers that, maybe, the shooting of both of these people had nothing to do with skin color, but with their behavior?
Do you bother to read anything, or are you comfortable forming your opinions in a near-total vacuum of information? He wasn't white, he didn't look white (one of the marshals was heard giving instruction in Spanish and English), and your response makes no sense given that Kevin was talking about the subway shooting where nothing about de Menezes' behavior gave the police cause to shoot him.
 
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If you shout "I've got a bomb" in any crowded situation, I think you pretty much cancel several of your own civil rights.

I suggest not yelling "I've got a bomb" at the airport. Worth a try, anyway.
I suggest not being bipolar. Millions of people still insist on being bipolar, the ingrates.

But the point is moot, because it seems very unlikely that he did do that.
 
Any hacker worth his salt is taking only minimal risks
But some aren't "worth their salt". Some do take stupid risks. So although they might be easily caught...it is too late if they have already released a lot of confidential customer information. Your business is going to take a hit, even though the hacker took too many risks. You can't always assume that your attackers are going to be crafty, clever, and careful. Stupid, sloppy, careless attackers can do a lot of damage, too.
 
But some aren't "worth their salt". Some do take stupid risks. So although they might be easily caught...it is too late if they have already released a lot of confidential customer information. Your business is going to take a hit, even though the hacker took too many risks. You can't always assume that your attackers are going to be crafty, clever, and careful. Stupid, sloppy, careless attackers can do a lot of damage, too.
Right, and that's why it makes sense to hire white-hat hackers, since it does increase the perception of risk.

Hiring air marshals does not have the same effect; it instead forces would-be hijackers into a strategy that exposes us to greater risk.
 
If you shout "I've got a bomb" in any crowded situation, I think you pretty much cancel several of your own civil rights.

I suggest not yelling "I've got a bomb" at the airport. Worth a try, anyway.

That's an interesting opinion.

How is it possible to give up your rights?
 
That's an interesting opinion.

How is it possible to give up your rights?

Wouldn't you say that, for example, engaging in a gun battle with police officers temporarily - i.e. for the duration of the firefight - gives up your right to life?
 
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I've posted this before in that British incident, but I think it bears repeating. It's a game I like to play called "You're the Cop."
So.

You're the cop in the airport:

You see a man. He looks very agitated. He is behaving in a strange manner. He yells something about a bomb and reaches for a bag in a hurried fashion.

What do you do?

As you've broken the suit on Jean Charlez de Menezes, it seems to me OK to talk about it.

In that case, Menezes was not looking agitated or behaving unusually in any way. Nor did he say anything about a bomb. Nor did he reach into a bag. And he was already restrained by the police, when another unit of the police threw the restrainer to the side and, along with a couple of others, shot him point-blank in the head, execution-style.

There were some initial claims that he had behaved unusually in some way (namely, that he had vaulted the turnstile, or whatever you call those weird pincers they have on the Tube), but it turned out to be false.

Yet on that thread, only Rolfe and I were unabashedly critical of the police. That thread grew slowly. This Miami thread grew to three pages the first day, and there are a lot of people critical of the Marshals.

Of course, there could still be some more info in the Miami case, which will come out and make the Marshals look more foolish.

But so far, with a similar amount of information, I see a lot more critical attitudes toward the Marshals in this case.

I don't know if this is good or bad; nor do I know why. But it's interesting.
 
See? SEE?! It WAS racism after all!
Silly me, I've always though hispanic people look like white people. I don't think of them as being "non-white". In fact, when I saw a photo of him yesterday, I didn't even realize he was hispanic. I guess I just don't fit into the liberal stereotype of a white American (and non-liberal) male. I don't actually think much about race or skin color, actually.
 
... What about innocent mentally ill people, drunk people, stupid people, teenagers and so forth who almost certainly outnumber terrorists?

drunk people: Are responsible for their actions (in particular the decision to get blotto before entering a secure area). If their actions make it seem that they are a security risk and they get themselves killed - it's their fault.

innocent mentally ill people/stupid people: Are either mentally impaired enough that they should be in an institution, not onboard a plane, or are the responsibility of a guardian (who should contact the airport security/flight crew etc ahead of time, make sure they've taken all their meds etc). If their actions make it seem that they are a security risk and they are killed - it's probably the guardians fault.

Teenagers - Give em to the Darwin Awards. If someone is capable of travelling on their own then you have to let them take responsibility for their actions. Are you suggest that someone claiming to have a bomb that they are about to detonate should be treated as a prankster - "Actually Air Marshall you're on candid camera!".??
I think claiming to have a bomb is equivalent to jumping in front of traffic.
 

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