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PASS ID Act

richardm said:
That is probably a fair comment. But in the future, who knows what better, foolproof technology might come along to track innocent citizens? In the meantime however everyone cheerfully carries mobile phones around with them, usually without thinking twice that they could be tracked - and those things have tracking ranges of kilometres. Sure, you can turn your phone off. You could also leave your ID card at home. Unless you planned to use it, in which case the location of that usage could just as easily be logged when the card is verified.

I just fail to see the special difficulty that RFID chips present, versus all the other things we do on a daily basis, unless you start invoking improbable reading scenarios, or future technology which may or may not materialise, and which in any case isn't available for the foreseeable future.

Edit: To be a bit more on-topic, I generally feel uncomfortable about ID cards on the whole. It has a bit too much a of "Show me your papers!" feel to it. But in the USA where people often seem to have state issued ID cards, it seems to make sense to standardise them for the sort of reasons that FullFlavorMenthol gave.
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RFID isn't even effective as an anti-counterfeit measure. Check Bruce Schneier's blog about the RFID technology in ID's and bus passes that has been cloned successfully, in seconds, by thieves.
 
Ducky,

If RFID chips can be easily cloned, then this requirement for RFID tags would be entirely for the purpose of placing the citizens of the US under surveillance.
 
INRM said:
Ducky,

If RFID chips can be easily cloned, then this requirement for RFID tags would be entirely for the purpose of placing the citizens of the US under surveillance.
Click to expand...

Your "then" clause doesn't follow from the first assumption. Yes they can be cloned. No, that does not automatically mean they are only for the purpose of surveillance. It is very possible (and probable) that bureaucracy refuses or is slow to admit a failing in an intended security feature. Non-technical politicians everywhere are often enamored with technology they do not fully understand the failings of. The chips also can be used to speed up checking processes via a chip reader at checkpoints on the border. That they are easily cloned is nothing spectacular except the government is not very smart at making counterfeiting difficult in this case.
 
Ducky said:
Your "then" clause doesn't follow from the first assumption. Yes they can be cloned. No, that does not automatically mean they are only for the purpose of surveillance. It is very possible (and probable) that bureaucracy refuses or is slow to admit a failing in an intended security feature. Non-technical politicians everywhere are often enamored with technology they do not fully understand the failings of. The chips also can be used to speed up checking processes via a chip reader at checkpoints on the border. That they are easily cloned is nothing spectacular except the government is not very smart at making counterfeiting difficult in this case.
Click to expand...

Also, if the purpose were tracking, the government would not want something easily cloned, as you could easily foil their tracking this way.
 
INRM said:
As for broadcast range of RFID tags, that can always change. Technology does improve with time. Radars from the 1940's didn't have anywhere near the broadcast range available for the antenna size and power-requirements, than a radar developed in the 1950's.
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Oh no. Ohhhh no.

For someone harping about broadcast range and radar technology, you sure seem to be having trouble with the 'active/passive' concept.

So how would they track you?

Be sure to account for the Doppler effect when the target is moving.
 
INRM said:
As for broadcast range of RFID tags, that can always change. Technology does improve with time. Radars from the 1940's didn't have anywhere near the broadcast range available for the antenna size and power-requirements, than a radar developed in the 1950's.
Click to expand...

Radar range is independent of the decade. It is dependent of the line of sight. This hopefully does not change much over time.
Of course reception quality can change.

Getting simple concepts wrong does not enhance your credibility.
 
I don't think China is going to buy anymore T-bills to fund this; perhaps Japan will.

I find it hilarious that this was passed and the states completely ignored it. Apparently arresting the state officials responsible for failing to implement this wasn't in the cards for the big bad fed.

Does anybody even remember why we NEEDED the real id? It was a matter of national security!!!
 
Belgium has had electronic ID's for a few years now
0702.jpg


They're pretty nifty, handy for a lot of services (eg; Train pass, hospital visits, e-gov) and smaller than the old ones.
 
fullflavormenthol said:
Actually no. It really seems to clarify much of the Real ID act, and simply standardizes the system of State IDs. This is a good thing, which means that over time you won't have to worry that the guy in the gas station in Texas won't let you buy a 6 pack of beer because your on vacation from Missouri and he doesn't trust your ID. We need a unified system, and this helps set one up.

That aside it removes some of the ambiguity from the Real ID Act and lays out a series of requirements that from my experience most states follow anyway.

It simply lays out information that must be on an identification card, and what types of documents are sufficient to allow you to get one. For most people this will be a birth certificate, a SS card, and a current bill. Simple as that.
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But but but - then the government will know who you are!!11!!1!!!!!1
 
richardm said:
That is probably a fair comment. But in the future, who knows what better, foolproof technology might come along to track innocent citizens? In the meantime however everyone cheerfully carries mobile phones around with them, usually without thinking twice that they could be tracked - and those things have tracking ranges of kilometres. Sure, you can turn your phone off. You could also leave your ID card at home. Unless you planned to use it, in which case the location of that usage could just as easily be logged when the card is verified.

I just fail to see the special difficulty that RFID chips present, versus all the other things we do on a daily basis, unless you start invoking improbable reading scenarios, or future technology which may or may not materialise, and which in any case isn't available for the foreseeable future.

Edit: To be a bit more on-topic, I generally feel uncomfortable about ID cards on the whole. It has a bit too much a of "Show me your papers!" feel to it. But in the USA where people often seem to have state issued ID cards, it seems to make sense to standardise them for the sort of reasons that FullFlavorMenthol gave.
Click to expand...


As someone in the Label Industry, thank you for actually knowing the facts about RFID and speaking them.

Also, I love that your username could be mine, same firstname/last initial :)
 
Fishstick said:
Belgium has had electronic ID's for a few years now
[qimg]http://www.maldegem.be/infokrant_juli08/0702.jpg[/qimg]

They're pretty nifty, handy for a lot of services (eg; Train pass, hospital visits, e-gov) and smaller than the old ones.
Click to expand...

That's a lot like the Hong Kong ID. We've been on them for years, and have even gone to thumb prints. You no longer have to wait in the Immigration line if you have one. Put the card into the machine - go through the first gates and then put your thumb on the little scanner and wait for the second gate to open.

We also have a prepaid RFID "Octopus" card that we use on the MTR and public transportation and which can be used in 7/11 stores and in my case, is actually my key to my apartment building.

I like 'em. I also work in Logistics and know the limitations of "active" RFID. I mean, sometimes the card doesn't work when you swipe your wallet over the surface - you have to remove it and swipe it again. That doesn't sound like they can track me very far. I suppose if I ever make Interpol's Most Wanted, they could track my movements back and forth to work, but the minute I wanted to stop them from doing so, I'd just have to revert to buying individual tickets. Big Brother's still got a long way to go.
 
We could go the British route. Spend millions on electronic ID's and not buy the equipment needed to actually read them ...
 
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