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Pardons

I don't get the fuss. Revoking or seriously modifying the President's power to issue pardons just because he might pardon the "wrong" people is nothing more than a trivial pursuit.
 
The main problem is the self-dealing, I think.

If a president can just pardon people who commit crimes on his behalf (as Trump did with Manafort, Stone, ...), it effectively puts the president's team above the law.
 
Firestone said:
The main problem is the self-dealing, I think.

If a president can just pardon people who commit crimes on his behalf (as Trump did with Manafort, Stone, ...), it effectively puts the president's team above the law.
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That's really the only issue at hand - and the lesson shouldn't be "we need to get rid of pardons", since even Toupee Fiasco managed to pardon people who deserved it.

Rather, it's "Don't vote obvious bungling criminal sociopaths into office". That fixes that *actual* problem with Toupee Fiasco's pardons, and many other problems with the past four years.
 
Rudy is in a heap of trouble. That "trial by combat" thing isn't going to turn out well. At his criminal trial is he going to be represented by Lin Wood or Sydney Powell?
 
DevilsAdvocate said:
Rudy is in a heap of trouble. That "trial by combat" thing isn't going to turn out well. At his criminal trial is he going to be represented by Lin Wood or Sydney Powell?
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I'm not so sure. :(

IMO it will be difficult to get a 12-person jury to convict him because at least one will be an ardent Trump supporter who will find some way to excuse Rudy Giuliani's words and deeds.
 
DevilsAdvocate said:
In interesting legal matters, considering the very late hour, Biden could maybe theoretically revoke Bannon's pardon. It won't happen, but it possibly could.

Grant revoked two pardons granted by Andrew Johnson. The courts upheld the revocations because the prison warden had not delivered the pardon. Another revocation was upheld because the prisoner had physically received the pardon.

If Biden were to revoke Bannon's pardon, that may be upheld if, at that time, it has not been received by the clerks of the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York, or possibly even if the pardon has not been delivered, by some manner, to Bannon himself.

Probably won't happen. But an interesting idea.
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Shades of Marbury v. Madison.
 
No pardons yet for Jan6 invaders.

Time's not out yet, but Trump seems on track to hang these goons out to dry.

What I wouldn't pay to be inside the minds of these people that got duped into raiding the Capitol and abandoned by the leader they did it for.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
No pardons yet for Jan6 invaders.

Time's not out yet, but Trump seems on track to hang these goons out to dry.

What I wouldn't pay to be inside the minds of these people that got duped into raiding the Capitol and abandoned by the leader they did it for.
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They've been listening to Trump make statements like these (Snopes), going back to Aug 2015-

-and thought they could actually get away with what their leader was telling them to do. Now they're finding out that they're not getting pardoned, and he's sure as hell not going to pay any of their legal fees. If they have any brains at all, they'll understand that the guy they thought they were using to send a message was using them for his own personal profit the whole time. And if they have any sense of consistency in the message they thought they were sending with "drain the swamp!" they'll get that this was betrayed too- that they will pay legal prices for acts which were incited by a politician who will probably end up paying no price at all; they will be the goats sacrificed on the altar of "unity."
 
The list of pardons seems to have one thing in common.

They are some form of white collar crime, and they are wealthy, or at least formerly wealthy people. Now they all owe him a favor.
 
Puppycow said:
The list of pardons seems to have one thing in common.

They are some form of white collar crime, and they are wealthy, or at least formerly wealthy people. Now they all owe him a favor.
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Well, yes and no.

Owing someone a favour is only a problem when there are consequences for not paying them back. If the case of certain Italian fraternal organisations, the consequences are clear but in President Trump's case, I'm not sure what he can do, apart from impotently threatening legal action, now that he's out of office.
 
The Don said:
I'm not so sure. :(

IMO it will be difficult to get a 12-person jury to convict him because at least one will be an ardent Trump supporter who will find some way to excuse Rudy Giuliani's words and deeds.
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The AUSA office will probably spend more resources on jury selection than anything else.

Not that it would be hard. Most of the ardent Trump supporters proudly state so on their facebook page.
 
The pardon power puts the president above impeachment.

"I have a pardon here for every American for every crime Ever. Signing this will immediately release 150,000 inmates. Vote to impeach me and I sign it."
 
Puppycow said:
The list of pardons seems to have one thing in common.

They are some form of white collar crime, and they are wealthy, or at least formerly wealthy people. Now they all owe him a favor.
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I bet most of them is 2mln$ poorer. Rest is cover to make all pardons more acceptable.
 
Mumbles said:
That's really the only issue at hand - and the lesson shouldn't be "we need to get rid of pardons", since even Toupee Fiasco managed to pardon people who deserved it.

Rather, it's "Don't vote obvious bungling criminal sociopaths into office". That fixes that *actual* problem with Toupee Fiasco's pardons, and many other problems with the past four years.
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Even the best of Presidents have had...controversial pardons. I think reasonable limits are a good idea without repealing the power all together. That would be in line with the rest of the Constitution, which is designed to limit the impact of less than honorable actors.
 
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ahhell said:
Even the best of Presidents have had...controversial pardons. I think reasonable limits are a good idea without repealing the power all together. That would be in line with the rest of the Constitution, which is designed to limit the impact of less than honorable actors.
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The lame-duck pardon is a known monster. Presidents and governors that have pardon power and no accountability to the public in the lame duck period have no reason not to wield this power capriciously.

It's especially a problem for presidents, because it's usually a career ending position. There's no other elections to worry about if you're leaving the Presidency, so it's no problem at all to tarnish your reputation by handing out personal favors.
 
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