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Papers Please

And it's also 10 year old logic to say, "brown people better have their papers!" That's ridiculous.

The brown people in my community carry their papers, and it ain't because they're scared of stories. They get raids in my county about every six months. (My county has lots of migrant farm workers for the local vineyards, and the workers, for various reasons, grow roots and stay here.)

Your denial of this is fascinating. Again, it's great that you have never had a problem, but you are being obtuse claiming that no problem exists because you haven't personally experienced it.
 
I saw them. I think we are talking about two different things. I have no doubt that US Citizens are mistakenly deported sometimes. Our legal systems are not perfect and there's room for improvement. That teenager cited earlier identified herself as Colombian for example. The mentally ill are especially vulnerable. Citizens, especially poor ones, can be in the criminal system and then be referred to immigration authorities because they can't prove their identities. It happens, sadly, and we need to be better on that front.

But I'm saying that someone like myself is not going to be rounded up by ICE simply because I'm brown. It would be near impossible for that to happen by mistake. There isn't going to be a purging of Brown People. No one is going to hassle me for my papers just because I look Mexican. It's just FUD to suggest it's a real possibility.
Is this the closest you can come to just admitting you were wrong, changing your assertion as if we wouldn't notice? :rolleyes:
xjx388 said:
Can you imagine the **** storm that would happen if an American citizen was hassled and deported?
I see you discounted anyone from the lower echelon of society.

Think that young woman who gave a fake name had the legal council that was her right? The ones deported because ICE didn't believe them or they were naturalized citizens don't count as much as a citizen of your standing? A mentally disabled person doesn't deserve your imaginary **** storm?

But we are also talking about legal US citizens, who committed no crimes in addition to the citizens you think don't count.

Where's your, "I was mistaken, guess there wasn't any **** storm after all?"
 
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Notice what the article is addressing: mostly citizens who were not born here who have trouble proving their citizenship. That's a bad situation but its a far cry from the FUD being promoted here.

I'll put it this way: in the extremely improbable case that people like me start getting rounded up by ICE, maybe I'll want to be deported.
 
Notice what the article is addressing: mostly citizens who were not born here who have trouble proving their citizenship. That's a bad situation but its a far cry from the FUD being promoted here.

I'll put it this way: in the extremely improbable case that people like me start getting rounded up by ICE, maybe I'll want to be deported.

The thing that you are missing is this, these mistakes have been occurring when there wasn't a big push to catch and deport all illegals. The systems are already overworked and the safeguards all but non-existent.

The US already is deporting citizens because of this, how much worse will the problem get when the Trump machine to deport all illegals starts up? How are they going to determine who's illegal? Some of these people ended up in ICE custody for being picked up doing minor things and the cops deciding they weren't legal. How do you know that in a year's time when you get pulled over for speeding and can't produce evidence of your citizenship right there, that you might not end up in an ICE too?
 
Notice what the article is addressing: mostly citizens who were not born here who have trouble proving their citizenship. That's a bad situation but its a far cry from the FUD being promoted here.

I'll put it this way: in the extremely improbable case that people like me start getting rounded up by ICE, maybe I'll want to be deported.

Notice how you discount those brown people who you perceive are not like you?
 
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The brown people in my community carry their papers, and it ain't because they're scared of stories. They get raids in my county about every six months. (My county has lots of migrant farm workers for the local vineyards, and the workers, for various reasons, grow roots and stay here.)

Your denial of this is fascinating. Again, it's great that you have never had a problem, but you are being obtuse claiming that no problem exists because you haven't personally experienced it.

What community is that? If it's Napa county (you mentioned vineyards) I've been there and I didn't fear ICE sweeping me up by mistake while they raided the vineyard I was touring. I certainly didn't carry my passport to California.

The Rio Grande Valley also gets Immigration raids with regularity. We are swarming with both illegals and ICE/CBP officers. You can't drive around without sing a CBP cruiser. I don't carry my papers. No one is coming for me. It's FUD spread through social media, crazy blogs and now, apparently, skeptic discussion forums.
 
STATEMENT: California Senate Leader Responds to New Information from ICE
“I appreciate that ICE finally disclosed details about their recent raids, but stunned to learn that ICE’s public comments made yesterday were blatantly false. When news first broke of raids happening across Southern California yesterday, ICE told the media that reports of 100 immigrants being arrested were ‘grossly exaggerated’ yet today they admit they arrested 160 people.

“ICE also told numerous media outlets that yesterday was a “routine” day which it most clearly was not. And they have yet to disclose the exact crimes each person was convicted of to support their arrests.

“The disconnect between what was coming out of the ICE Regional Office yesterday and what was publicly disclosed today is deeply troubling and needs to be fully explained by the Trump Administration.

“I find it particularly galling that after misleading the media yesterday, ICE would today lecture the public about the dangers of ‘false reporting.’ If ICE is looking for the culprit to yesterday’s panic they need only look in the mirror.
 
What community is that? If it's Napa county (you mentioned vineyards) I've been there and I didn't fear ICE sweeping me up by mistake while they raided the vineyard I was touring. I certainly didn't carry my passport to California.

Amador County. Many Mexican-American families. They are reassured by your insistence that everything is fine. Just speak English.
 
I saw them. I think we are talking about two different things. I have no doubt that US Citizens are mistakenly deported sometimes. Our legal systems are not perfect and there's room for improvement. That teenager cited earlier identified herself as Colombian for example. The mentally ill are especially vulnerable. Citizens, especially poor ones, can be in the criminal system and then be referred to immigration authorities because they can't prove their identities. It happens, sadly, and we need to be better on that front.

But I'm saying that someone like myself is not going to be rounded up by ICE simply because I'm brown. It would be near impossible for that to happen by mistake. There isn't going to be a purging of Brown People. No one is going to hassle me for my papers just because I look Mexican. It's just FUD to suggest it's a real possibility.

I'm certainly glad you're not being harassed, but I think you have got your logic backwards, as many people often do.

It is still true, for the most part, that being brown does not mean you stand a great likelihood of being harassed and deported. That number is still very small. But I think it also true that a disproportionate number of those deported and harassed are brown. That proportion is the issue.

I've heard an argument like yours used often by those who have survived or escaped some hazard. I never had seatbelts, and I didn't die. Of course not. Most people don't. The ones who did aren't around.

When disproportion becomes great enough that everyone in the targeted group has to worry, it's way way too late.
 
I'm more concerned with the practical matters. How are you going to tell if I'm an American or not? Who has the burden of proof here?

Trump will ask for your birth certificate, as he did for Obama, and when he has seen it he will decide whether you're American or not... :D
 
I saw them. I think we are talking about two different things. I have no doubt that US Citizens are mistakenly deported sometimes. Our legal systems are not perfect and there's room for improvement. That teenager cited earlier identified herself as Colombian for example. The mentally ill are especially vulnerable. Citizens, especially poor ones, can be in the criminal system and then be referred to immigration authorities because they can't prove their identities. It happens, sadly, and we need to be better on that front.

But I'm saying that someone like myself is not going to be rounded up by ICE simply because I'm brown. It would be near impossible for that to happen by mistake. There isn't going to be a purging of Brown People. No one is going to hassle me for my papers just because I look Mexican. It's just FUD to suggest it's a real possibility.

My inclination is to think that major deficiencies in the system (and the examples cited by other posters certainly indicate major deficiencies) need to be fixed before any sort of major increase in deportations. I don't doubt that the vast majority of Latino US citizens have nothing to worry about, but the number of people with cognitive or psychological disabilities and the number of people involved in minor criminality (lesser vehicular offenses, misdemeanor drug possession, homeless people trespassing and such) is pretty large and I am worried that some of those folks could be put through immigration hassles for no good reason.
 
Notice what the article is addressing: mostly citizens who were not born here who have trouble proving their citizenship. That's a bad situation but its a far cry from the FUD being promoted here.

I'll put it this way: in the extremely improbable case that people like me start getting rounded up by ICE, maybe I'll want to be deported.



You admit that some with a perfect right to remain may suffer but you're pretty sure you, personally, won't suffer so you're alright with it?
 
It may be a small point, but if you're driving around, it's pretty certain you do have identification. It would be unfortunate if you did not have a driver's license.

The question, though, is whether you should need identification if you're just walking down the street, or sitting in your house, or a passenger in someone else's car. We Americans are accustomed to the idea that you don't. And part of what is being discussed here is what may happen if you don't, and whether that situation is changing. I can pretty well guarantee that if I were stopped while walking down the street with no ID, I almost certainly would not be stopped, and if stopped, not hassled, and if hassled, certainly not deported. Of course, I'm pretty conspicuously not a minority person.

And of course, most of the time in most places the same is true of people who are more conspicuously minorities, and glad we are of that. What a terrible and unliveable place this would be if that were not the case. XJX388 believes it's alarmist, or even false, to note the small but significant way the freedom we take for granted is being eroded by fear, prejudicial profiling, and xenophobia, while maintaining that if it did turn out to be true, he'd be ready to leave the country. I think that would be a great shame. I'd like to think he's right in dismissing news of the changing trends, but I rather suspect denial, and if he's wrong, late detection is too late.

When my wife became a citizen one of the first and best liberties she enjoyed was that of never having to show papers to anyone. It's a point of some pride that she never takes ID anywhere if she's not driving. We Americans don't have to. I'd like to see that continue. It's one of the good things about the United States, and we'd hate to see it go.
 
You admit that some with a perfect right to remain may suffer but you're pretty sure you, personally, won't suffer so you're alright with it?

All I'm saying is that we aren't going to have to go around showing papers to officials just because we are brown. The ICE raids in Austin, for example, didn't ensnare my son, uncle, cousins, etc who all live there. Suggesting that these kinds of enforcement actions are a sign of future problems for brown Americans is FUD.

The moment after I or any of the brown people I know gets hassled for papers, you will hear it here first.

I'd also like to note that the instances of US Citizens wrongly detained and/or deported have been happening since way before Donald Trump even thought of running for President. This isn't a Trump-specific problem.
 
Wow.

Folks here need to take a step back, and try to regain a grip on reality.

Just look at your own posts and listen to yourselves. You claim to be skeptics, yet you surrender yourselves to unsubstantiated panic driven rumors without even attempting to verify anything found elsewhere, or presented here.

I developed a respect for this site over the years because of the fact-based emotionless responses made to the 9/11 truthers. You folks shut those people down, you went with the facts, and you looked good doing it.

But now, I see many of those same people giving in to and going along with the same type of baseless garbage the truthers did simply because the person who you wanted to win the election, didn't.

This used to be a go-to place for objective facts that I would recommend to others, but I could not make that same recommendation now.
I have a low opinion of this type of post. It's an empty rant, so vague that it communicates nothing. I suggest that you point out with specificity what you take issue with, and why.
 
Notice what the article is addressing: mostly citizens who were not born here who have trouble proving their citizenship. That's a bad situation but its a far cry from the FUD being promoted here.

I'll put it this way: in the extremely improbable case that people like me start getting rounded up by ICE, maybe I'll want to be deported.

So just 'second class' citizens.
That's OK then.
 
The username was a bit of a clue.

We should call on you to pay Travis a visit when he needs a smack upside the head. :p

Travis might come across as an oddball, but I know firsthand the methheads that he probably has to deal with where he lives.
 

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