Pam Reynolds Near-Death Experience

Titus Rivas

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As a non-debunker, I'm curious about how skeptics think they can deal with the so called Pam Reynolds Case. This is a relatively recent case of an Near Death Experience during brain surgery (to remove an aneurysm). In this case, the subject would have observed the procedure while her brain processes had been artificially stopped.

I've been in touch through e-mail with the brain surgeon in question who referred me to the account given of the case in Michael B. Sabom's book Light and Death, adding that Pam's account was 'remarkably accurate'.

For more information visit these sites:

Visions and memories occur while brain dead
Pam Reynolds Homepage

Titus Rivas
 
Titus Rivas said:
As a non-debunker, I'm curious about how skeptics think they can deal with the so called Pam Reynolds Case. This is a relatively recent case of an Near Death Experience during brain surgery (to remove an aneurysm). In this case, the subject would have observed the procedure while her brain processes had been artifically stopped.

...snip...

Titus Rivas
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I'm not too sure what you mean by "skeptics think they can deal with"? What is there to "deal with"? Either the facts are right or they are wrong or we can't determine the right/wrong.

That's how I deal with most things - perhaps I'm not what you meant by a "skeptic"?:confused:
 
Titus Rivas said:
As a non-debunker, I'm curious about how skeptics think they can deal with the so called Pam Reynolds Case.
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Just like we deal with any other case. She's making the claim. She must provide the proof.

But I'll play along for this thread.

We can examine all the biological possibilities that could produce the types of phenomena associated with near death experiences, and we have before. Those types of studies are well documented. I'd wager that as her brain died, she experienced the same types of things any other person claiming near death experience reported.

As to the accuracy of her 'vision', I'll say this:

In this case, as in all near death cases, the vision has been deemed accurate because of 'memory hits' (similar to a cold reader getting positive hits). She simply had a brain dump, and some of that stuff coincided with what took place in the O.R.

But when did the events that triggered those memories actually take place? Before or after she was put to death? Did they take place at all? She was after all in a very traumatic situation.

I recently was put under for a minor knee operation and remember a great deal of activity in the O.R., as I was drifting from consciousness. But I can't reconstruct accurately the chronology of events, the faces, or anything else that took place. I could however, spew things out that the attendant staff would recognize, and possibly misperceive as accurate memories. This is probably what's happened in this case.

Also, don't be surprised to find that skeptics are not averse to saying "I just don't know". You'll find we resort to that answer when faced with the unexplained (although I doubt this case is really unexplained) before we jump to "well, I can't explain it, so there must be an afterlife."

Still, the burden of proof is hers.
 
Responding

Darat,

I'm not too sure what you mean by "skeptics think they can deal with"? What is there to "deal with"? Either the facts are right or they are wrong or we can't determine the right/wrong.

That's how I deal with most things - perhaps I'm not what you meant by a "skeptic"?
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I meant a real debunker :D

cOrbin,

Ummm...skeptically.
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Which would be?

Phil,

Just like we deal with any other case. She's making the claim. She must provide the proof.
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No doubt, but that's what she supposedly did.

We can examine all the biological possibilities that could produce the types of phenomena associated with near death experiences, and we have before. Those types of studies are well documented. I'd wager that as her brain died, she experienced the same types of things any other person claiming near death experience reported.
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You should read the material on the websites then. Her brain processes stopped altogether. Within a materialist framework she was not supposed to experience anything . That's the main feature of this case, isn't it?

But when did the events that triggered those memories actually take place? Before or after she was put to death? Did they take place at all? She was after all in a very traumatic situation.
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They did take place, as was confirmed by the surgeon (even to me personally via e-mail). They specifically concerned surgery, not anything which happened beforehand.

Also, don't be surprised to find that skeptics are not averse to saying "I just don't know". You'll find we resort to that answer when faced with the unexplained (although I doubt this case is really unexplained) before we jump to "well, I can't explain it, so there must be an afterlife."
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Would you agree however, that as long as you don't know the case at least deserves to be seen as interesting and if not, why not?

Best wishes,

Titus Rivas
 
You should read the material on the websites then. Her brain processes stopped altogether. Within a materialist framework she was not supposed to experience anything . That's the main feature of this case, isn't it?
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Why should any one assume that her expiriences happened after her brain processes stopped altogether?

Why?

This is the problem with NDE. No one can tell you how near their expirience was to death.
 
Titus Rivas said:
As a non-debunker, I'm curious about how skeptics think they can deal with the so called Pam Reynolds Case. This is a relatively recent case of an Near Death Experience during brain surgery (to remove an aneurysm). In this case, the subject would have observed the procedure while her brain processes had been artifically stopped.
Click to expand...

This sounds a little suspect, from what I understand, brain processes don't stop and start. It's not like your heart that can be restarted with a jolt of electricity. The only way that a brain stops functioning is when it's dead. The brain may slow it's function down to preserve oxygen, This gives the appearance of being off because the electrical response is very low and difficult to detect. But, if it shuts off then it can't be turned on.
 
quote:
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Just like we deal with any other case. She's making the claim. She must provide the proof.
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No doubt, but that's what she supposedly did
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Are you saying she proved there's an afterlife, or she proved she experienced near death phenomena?

I have not had time to read all the specifics, but let's say the doctors stopped everything to where she was not supposed to experience anything at all. That point doesn't really matter. That's precisely why I included my own knee surgery experience. I was awake, though barely, before the operation, and lucid enough to look around the O.R., soaking up much of what I saw. Had I the gumption, I could have spewed a nice tale of the procedures that took place while I was out that would not have been completely accurate, but would have contained enough 'hits' that the gullable would believe I had somehow seen the operation in progress.

I'm suggesting that the same thing could be happening here. This woman at some point gathered information about things around her, or perhaps recalls something she saw on ER, and laid down a good story afterward with enough 'hits' that someone bought it and deemed her recollection accurate. (Notice no one ever says 'exact' in these cases).

The big question I guess is, how close to death were these memories (if they can be called memories) formed?
 
First, her heart was stopped or almost stopped by cold, she was not given a targeted neurotoxin to her brain. So during this period, she had brain function. Under those conditions the brain can function for some time. It has already been reported that children who fall into the ice can be fully alive (no brain damage) after over one hour underwater. The second fact that you should consider is that anasthesia, or any other treatment is not 100% effective in all people. I have a resistance to anasthetics, and when under general, I remember much of the operations, although I felt no pain. So her recalling things that went on are fully explainable. The mind tends to make things up and to connect data, which is why cold reading works too- people assume the paranormal when they do not know any better. This is another case of "we don't understand it all therefore paranormal." Finally, never underestimate humanities desire to evade death. Most everyone will rationalize and believe to the very end.
I find it unlikely this phenomena could be actively tested for due to ethical considerations, but maybe we should ask Gary Schwartz?
 
" Near " is the operative word here..




If she recalls things that took place while her brain was ' stopped ', then the obvious explanation is, that it wasn't.


I'm waiting for the report we get, when they have dug someone up after a week or so.



This from one of the ' Scientists ' quoted:
. For example, if you faint, you fall to the floor, you don’t know what’s happening and the brain isn’t working.
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Diogenes said:
If she recalls things that took place while her brain was ' stopped ', then the obvious explanation is, that it wasn't.
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Well, all the blood was drained out of her brain, her brain was chilled to 60 degrees Fahrenheit, and the EEG devices attached to her were all showing zero brain activity.

BUT,

From the webpage's description, all of the memories she has of things that supposedly happened to her during the surgery are memories of things that happened near the beginning of the surgery. Probably before her brain had "flatlined." All of her other "visions" were of dead relatives and tunnels of light and a vision of her own dead body being "covered" and other little daydreams like that, which she could have experienced after her brain was brought back "on line" but before she reawoke.
 
PHIL: In this case, as in all near death cases, the vision has been deemed accurate because of 'memory hits' (similar to a cold reader getting positive hits).

I can't believe you are implying that Pam Reynolds was a "cold" reader.
 
No Steve, I think he is just saying that tossing out a bunch of purported memories and getting some hits is similar to the way cold reading works.

~~ Paul
 
I liked this quote:
The modern tradition of equating death with an ensuing nothingness can be abandoned. For there is no reason to believe that human death severs the quality of the oneness in the universe
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There is nothing I hate worse than low-quality oneness. Eventually the quality gets so bad that twoness happens. But before that point, it's just lousy oneness all the way down.

~~ Paul
 
Paul, I guess you didn't get the humor. Sorry about that. Pam Reynolds, "cold reader" -- get it?
 
Actually there was nothing anecdotal about Pam being cold. This is from a description of her case. The surgery was well documented and witnessed by a team of doctors and O.R. nurses.

"This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life........"

Pam's brain and other tissues were protected from destruction by lowering her body temperature so that metabolism and oxygen consumption became nil. This is what protects drowning victims in cold fresh water and permits them to be revived even after being submerged a half hour or more. The statement above regarding such victims which implies they still had life in them and were not dead does not apply to the Reynolds case. Such drownings are anecdotal because EEGs are not performed in the field, there are no controlled conditions such as in Reynolds and the blood, however, cold and bereft of oxygen it is (by having the lungs filled with water) is not drained from the head.
 
SteveGrenard said:
Actually there was nothing anecdotal about Pam being cold. This is from a description of her case. The surgery was well documented and witnessed by a team of doctors and O.R. nurses.

"This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life........"
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Oh, I'm sure that part's well-documented. It's her memories that are anecdotal. Can anyone specify when she had these visions? I don't think so. Could have been before, could have been after, could have been during -- nobody knows, and there's no way to know. It's anecdotal. Case dismissed for lack of objective evidence. Any conclusions that she experienced out-of-body projection/visions/near-death remote viewing is leaping to a biased conclusion. In fact, no conclusion positive or negative can be drawn here. It's a nice story, it really is, but that's all it is.
 
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