Palestinian update

[a_unique_person]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,135399,00.html

Strip — Israeli tanks and bulldozers pulled back from this Palestinian town Thursday after tearing up roads, flattening greenhouses and knocking down dozens of houses in a devastating two-day raid, part of Israel's expanding invasion of the northern Gaza Strip (search).

The Israeli offensive is in its third week and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (search) told legislators Thursday that the campaign would continue and even be broadened.

Since the Sept. 29 start of the offensive, triggered by a deadly Palestinian rocket attack on an Israeli town, 105 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli army fire, including 18 under the age of 16.

.....


Palestinian author Omar Khalil Omar, a Beit Lahiya resident, said two houses belonging to his extended family were damaged, and two cars were crushed. He said his mother's grave, on a family plot near his home, was torn up.

"I don't know what threat my mother's grave could pose to the state of Israel," Omar said. "They (the Israelis) simply want to uproot us from here, whether we are alive or dead. But the grave will stay and we will stay."

Beit Lahiya has been raided by the army in the past, but residents said the destruction they encountered this time was far worse than in previous incursions.

For many of the 30,000 residents, the loss of olive trees hurt most.

"My father planted this farm when he was a child," said farmer Salim Omar, 70, holding a broken olive branch near his 450 uprooted trees. "Why did they do this? ... I wish I had died before I saw this."

Collective punishment, meant to demoralise and destroy a society. Then, when the society does start to crumble, there are hoots of joy and derision, as the Palestinians are just 'animals'.

 

[Otther]

Collective punishment

Excellent way to define terrorism in general.

 

[Jim Bowen]

Israel's continuing immunity from the world's moral outrage is one of the more enduring mysteries of this world.

Jim Bowen

 

[Drooper]

Israel's continuing immunity from the world's moral outrage is one of the more enduring mysteries of this world.

Jim Bowen

And the continuing global treatment of the violent pursuit of the Palestinian "cause" as an honourable fight for freedom is another.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The Palestinians are not animals. The people who lead them are misguided corrupt old terrorists led by a dictator who refuses to reform or follow basic Palestinian law and the people who have brought the war to the Palestinian street are islamofascists bent on matrydom, jihad and homicide bombing. These groups such as Hamas, Al Aksa and Islamic Jihad are officially recognized as terror groups by the E.U. and U.S.

The people who lead the Palestinians don't want the fighting to stop for the fighting is what makes them who they are. The islamofascists don't want the fighting to stop because their goal is the destruction of Israel.

In between Israel and these Palestinian leaders/terrorist groups are normal everyday Palestinians like Palestinian author Omar Khalil Omar's family.

Since Arafat arrived in 1996 things have gone to hell for the Palestinians. Perhaps his Fateh policy of diplomacy by suicide bomber and jihad fighter is the wrong policy. It didn't work for the Palestinians in the 1960's, it didn't work for the Palestinians in the 70's and it didn't work in the 1980's or 90's either.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Israel's continuing immunity from the world's moral outrage is one of the more enduring mysteries of this world. Jim Bowen

So sending women and teenagers to blow themselves up on buses, in shopping malls, discos and restaurants is the moral high ground? How about hijacking airplanes is that the moral high ground? How about killing athletes at the Olympics is that the moral high ground? How about killing 26 people in the Rome airport or hijacking a cruise ship and tossing a wheel-chair-bound hostage overboard is that the moral high ground? I guess it must be if you are not on the receiving end...

 

[Ian Osborne]

So sending women and teenagers to blow themselves up on buses, in shopping malls, discos and restaurants is the moral high ground? How about hijacking airplanes is that the moral high ground? How about killing athletes at the Olympics is that the moral high ground? How about killing 26 people in the Rome airport or hijacking a cruise ship and tossing a wheel-chair-bound hostage overboard is that the moral high ground? I guess it must be if you are not on the receiving end...

Jim never said any of that - the acts you describe are morally repugnant, and no one says otherwise. Asking why Israel is apparently above moral outrage in no way implies a justification of Palestinian terrorism. Life is not a Hollywood Western where the good guys wear white hats and the baddies dress in black, y'know

 

[Mike B.]

Israel's continuing immunity from the world's moral outrage is one of the more enduring mysteries of this world.

Jim Bowen

Do you really think there is a lack of "outrage" against Israel in the world, the UN, EU, or whatever?

Actually, if anything there is over-outrage, as the 100,000s of Chechyans killed hardly registered to the world.

I don't recall many threads on the JREF about it.

The deathtoll in Palestine is very much below this.

But to many the conflict in Palestine is the ONLY thing that one is allowed to be outraged about.

P.S. I am not saying people shouldn't care or be outraged or whatever at the conflict in Israel/Palestine but the idea that they are immune from it is absurd.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Asking why Israel is apparently above moral outrage in no way implies a justification of Palestinian terrorism.

The UN bends over backwards to condemn Israel every chance it gets and has yet to pass a single U.N. resolution which pertains to Palestinian terrorism which has killed Americans, Europeans, Russians, Africans, Israelis AND Arabs. The UNWRA chief admited Hamas members are on agency payroll. The UN passed a resolution in a record 4 days condemning Israel for killing psychopath nutball Sheik Ahmed Yassin, a guy who sent women and children to commit suicide and kill innocent civilians.

I'd say Israel has never had immunity from the world's moral outrage. In fact it is the opposite, the Palestinian Authority has the immunity.

 

[a_unique_person]

And Sharon is the kind of nutball who sends troops off to empty automatic guns into schoolgirls.

 

[a_unique_person]

And the continuing global treatment of the violent pursuit of the Palestinian "cause" as an honourable fight for freedom is another.

If it was that simple, I might agree with you, but it isn't. Eg, for every Israeli child that dies as a result of this war, three Palestinians children die. We just don't hear about those deaths.

 

[Mike B.]

If it was that simple, I might agree with you, but it isn't. Eg, for every Israeli child that dies as a result of this war, three Palestinians children die. We just don't hear about those deaths.

I don't think those figures prove anything like you seem to think they do.

If Israel simply wanted to rack up a high kill ratio, they could simply pull up their heavy guns and flatten the Palestinian towns.

I mean considering the difference in the type of weapons that each side possesses, a 3 to1 ratio shows incredible restraint.

 

[Renfield]

If it was that simple, I might agree with you, but it isn't. Eg, for every Israeli child that dies as a result of this war, three Palestinians children die. We just don't hear about those deaths.

Yes, but keep in mind those Palestinians probably died when their apartment was blown up, or perhaps their settlement leveled, in a "peacekeeping action". Not "terrorism" so it doesn't count. At least not to our liberal (ha) press.

 

[a_unique_person]

Do you really think there is a lack of "outrage" against Israel in the world, the UN, EU, or whatever?

Actually, if anything there is over-outrage, as the 100,000s of Chechyans killed hardly registered to the world.

I don't recall many threads on the JREF about it.

The deathtoll in Palestine is very much below this.

But to many the conflict in Palestine is the ONLY thing that one is allowed to be outraged about.

P.S. I am not saying people shouldn't care or be outraged or whatever at the conflict in Israel/Palestine but the idea that they are immune from it is absurd.

I agree that the Chechyans have suffered, and this has been mentioned in other threads. There are many more examples of suffering around the world. This particular cause is in my face, everyday, for some reason. It is also one of the most destabilising influences on the planet these days. The other issue is that the Palestinians are suffering a slow act of genocide. They have no country, are stateless, their society is breaking down. To condemn them as animals is to ignore the fact that much of the behaviour is the result of the day to day terror they have to live under. Whole lives have been lived under the threat of armed occupation, with attacks and intimidation and humiliation daily events. This is a crime against millions that has been going on for about 60 years now.

This thread http://randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46290 was one I found to be a very important one. To just be alive as a Palestinian can mean a life of constant suffering.

 

[Drooper]

If it was that simple, I might agree with you, but it isn't. Eg, for every Israeli child that dies as a result of this war, three Palestinians children die. We just don't hear about those deaths.

While most even handed people see a tragic self perpetuating cycle of intolerance, violence and retribution where there is fault on both sides of the divide, AUP only sees a game of football:

Isreal 3 - Palestinians 1 ergo Palestinians win.

 

[BPSCG]

Yes, but keep in mind those Palestinians probably died when their apartment was blown up, or perhaps their settlement leveled, in a "peacekeeping action". Not "terrorism" so it doesn't count. At least not to our liberal (ha) press.

Maybe the Palestinians need to take their cue from the residents of Fallujah, who may finally be deciding that "terrorists" is item number one on the list of the top ten stupid things to allow in your neighborhood: Insurgent Alliance Is Fraying In Fallujah

BAGHDAD, Oct. 12 -- Local insurgents in the city of Fallujah are turning against the foreign fighters who have been their allies in the rebellion that has held the U.S. military at bay in parts of Iraq's Sunni Muslim heartland, according to Fallujah residents, insurgent leaders and Iraqi and U.S. officials.

Relations are deteriorating as local fighters negotiate to avoid a U.S.-led military offensive against Fallujah, while foreign fighters press to attack Americans and their Iraqi supporters. The disputes have spilled over into harsh words and sporadic violence, with Fallujans killing at least five foreign Arabs in recent weeks, according to witnesses.

"If the Arabs will not leave willingly, we will make them leave by force," said Jamal Adnan, a taxi driver who left his house in Fallujah's Shurta neighborhood a month ago after the house next door was bombed by U.S. aircraft targeting foreign insurgents...

One of the foreign guerrillas killed by local fighters was Abu Abdallah Suri, a Syrian and a prominent member of Zarqawi's group. Suri's body was discovered Sunday. He was shot in the head and chest while being chased by a carload of tribesmen, according to a security guard who said he witnessed the killing.

Residents say foreign fighters recently have taken to gathering in Fallujah's grimy commercial district after being denied shelter in residential neighborhoods because their presence so often attracts U.S. warplanes.

 

[a_unique_person]

While most even handed people see a tragic self perpetuating cycle of intolerance, violence and retribution where there is fault on both sides of the divide, AUP only sees a game of football:

Isreal 3 - Palestinians 1 ergo Palestinians win.

No, I have likened the situation to a tragedy, more than once. And I have hoped that both sides will be able to reach a peaceful compromise. However, the military occupation of the Palestinian cities and the relentless exapansion of settlements means that this cannot happen. That is, each troop from the IDF on Palestinians land, armed and ready to kill is an act of intimidation and mental violence. Read that thread I referred to.

 

[zenith-nadir]

And Sharon is the kind of nutball who sends troops off to empty automatic guns into schoolgirls.

This comment is so disingenous that it could only come from a_u_p.

Eg, for every Israeli child that dies as a result of this war, three Palestinians children die. We just don't hear about those deaths

So if more Palestinans die than Israelis that means the Palestinians should win the war by default?

The other issue is that the Palestinians are suffering a slow act of genocide. They have no country, are stateless, their society is breaking down. To condemn them as animals is to ignore the fact that much of the behaviour is the result of the day to day terror they have to live under. Whole lives have been lived under the threat of armed occupation, with attacks and intimidation and humiliation daily events. This is a crime against millions that has been going on for about 60 years now.

Frankly you wouldn't know genocide if it bit you in the butt. The Palestinians had free reign Gaza and the West Bank from 1948 to 1967...yet they never created a state. The Palestinians signed treaty after treaty since 1993 yet the terrorists have never stopped. The Palestinian Authority has made promise after promise yet none of those promises have ever been fulfilled... to the point that no one - including the Arabs - believe what Arafat says anymore. The Palestinian Authority has allowed and supported terrorists to operate from within Palestinian civilian areas - putting Palestinian civilians in harms way.

Blame Israel all you want a_u_p. But the terror began before Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza and Arafat made his mark in Jordan and Lebanon long before he arrived in Gaza to "free his people". I prefer to place the blame squarely on islamofascism and on Arafat/the Palestinian Authority which is suppose to act in a manner that commands respect and befits a government who desires the responsibility of managing a country.

 

[Drooper]

No, I have likened the situation to a tragedy, more than once. And I have hoped that both sides will be able to reach a peaceful compromise. However, the military occupation of the Palestinian cities and the relentless exapansion of settlements means that this cannot happen. That is, each troop from the IDF on Palestinians land, armed and ready to kill is an act of intimidation and mental violence. Read that thread I referred to.

Don't you read? Your response is exactly my point. You believe it is a tragedy with a clear villain and a clear victim. On that I could never agree.

blah blah blah, and the ongoing terrorism with the tacit approval of the Palestinian Authority, the aggressive foreign policy of the entire Arab world, minus Egypt, the refusal of Palestinians (i.e. the loosely described leaders) to even acknowledge the right to existance of Israel on any land whatsoever in the region and the educational curriculum that warps young Palestinians into believing that Israelis and Jews are sub human and their sworn enemies also act a bit of an obstacle to any meaningful settlement don't you think??

How silly of me, of course you don't think.

 

[davefoc]

Suppose the Israelis had not been expanding into Palestinian territory since 1967. Suppose if there had been an occupation of Palestinian lands it had been a short term action with the clear purpose of defending Israel.

Do you suppose that this violence would continue to this day? I am sure that ZN thinks so. I think there is a real possibility that the Palestinans would have come to accept Israel as a fact and to begin the process of living with it. There is considerable evidence that this kind of thing happens throughout the world. Native American Indians are not running insurgencies against the US government, the native inhabitants of New Zealand and Australia are not running insurgencies against their respective current governments.

What is going on now is a slow motion colonization of what remains of Palestine by Israelis. This colonization effort is a huge drain on Israel. It spends massive amounts of money to subsidize the settlers, it spends even more money to defend them and for what purpose. What is the end game for the Israelis?

The option that was used after their "war for independence" in 1948 was to terrorize the local inhabitants through massacre and forced evacuation and then to make up nice little stories about fictional Arab leaders calling the people to leave their homes. Would today's Israelis actually pursue the same kind of option? I don't think so. But what is the end that people like Sharon are driving for? I truly don't know.

Sharon's attempt to leave Gaza suggests that he has a vision where the Palestinians are left with some areas. Clearly the more radical elements in Israel have no such idea given how they have resisted the notion of leaving Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world of which the local inhabitants are almost entirely non-Israeli.