Palestinian Civil War?

[zenith-nadir]

I know the Palestinians are miserable.

For 30+ years of Arafat the palestinians have been miserable. I honestly feel for them and wonder how after all this time they still can cling to Arafat as the key to salvation.

Rather than sending their children to fight their grandfathers' wars I dream of a day where the only thing palestinians and israelis will be fighting over is who's gonna drive the tourists in their cab or who's gonna win the israeli-palestinian soccer championship.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm quite willing to believe that the EU has no evidence that funds have been misappropriated, because I suspect the EU really has no idea where any of the money they gave to the PA went. So this is a non-denial denial: they make it sound like they didn't support terrorists, but never directly claim they didn't.

Sort of like how the UN has no evidence that Saddam was bribing people (including some within the UN) through the oil-for-food program because they don't know what really happened to the money either.
http://www.tastymanatees.com/archives/000473.html

Why some people consider such thoroughly corrupt, incompetent, and unaccountable institutions as models for the US to emulate is beyond me.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The Americans are wise to the Palestinian Authority...

Palestinian groups refuse funds - Washington Times - 2003

Palestinian organizations are refusing to accept U.S. foreign aid this year, rather than sign a pledge promising that the money will not be used to support terrorism.

"This requirement is a worldwide requirement, not just for Palestinians," said Portia Palmer, a spokesman for the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). "The majority of the [nongovernmental organizations] worldwide have signed it."

The Palestinian Red Crescent, which has received about $300,000 a year in U.S. aid in the past, refused to sign the pledge and will forgo U.S. funding this year.

In response to September 11, President Bush signed Executive Order 13224, requiring all recipients of U.S. aid to guarantee that their organization does not support terrorism.

 

[Cleopatra]

Ziggurat I made my comment in the less inflammatory way possible.

Arafat has received millions in order to dismantle the refugee camps but he wants his people live like the animals because he believes that they invoke pity that way.

They might invoke pity to some eurocommunists that do nothing but feeling pity and protesting without proposing any solutions but he had created the worse possible mentality among his people.

I remind you that he has gone as far as prohibiting some books in the Occupied Territories, books that condemn his policy mostly and they have been written by brave Palestinians like the late Edmund Said.

geni

What can be done about this? I don't know. While Arafat is alive I don't think there will be peace but I think his death will make things worse.
We are here and this is now Arafat is a fact that has to worked with. He can't be sidelined he can't be trusted. From what I have seen Arafats main interest is staying in power. If the people want peace he will work for it if they don't he wont. We can't work with the leaders we have to work with the people.

I think that now Arafat plays the moderate in the West and he presents himself as the person who can control Hamas but he hasn't proven that.

I will sound cynical but I believe that if Arafat was of some real dangerto the Israelis he would be dead or exiled now, maybe dead. If we didn't have Arafat we should have invented him.

As long as he is alive nothing will change. I am not suggesting that he must die for God's sake! I am saying that his death will mark the end of an era.

The bad thing is that USA and Israel are not prepared for a post-Arafat period. And again I don't want to sound cynical but if a civil war breaks among the Palestinians who would be stupid enough to negotiate with them?

 

[geni]

No, what matters is that people are dying and will continue to die. However, the first step to solving a problem is getting a clear idea of what the problem is.

The problem is that two groups of people cliam the same bit of land as their country.

 

[geni]

Right now they're parasitic, living off aid money and Israeli jobs, and the fact that they aren't responsible for their own survival helps encourage the irrational leadership that has brought them to their own ruin. Aid money encourages dependency, and the Palestinians have spent decades now learning that dependency. It's time they start unlearning it.

Talk like that sounds awfully fermilia. How is doing a job that someone wants done but none of the locals are preparded to do at the wages being affered being a parasite?

I think you're missing the overall strategy right now, then. When the wall is in place, the Israelis won't need to keep talking to the Palestinians. And when Hamas can't rally the Palestinians behind their murder campaign with promises of defeating Israel (a completed wall will be the deathknell for that fantasy), they will have to reform in order to actually provide Palestinians what they really need (a civil society) or, more likely, they will implode under the wave of anger from Palestinians who realize that they have suffered so much because of Hamas with nothing to show for it.

You're betting a lot on the effectiveness of the wall.

 

[geni]

I think that now Arafat plays the moderate in the West and he presents himself as the person who can control Hamas but he hasn't proven that.

I will sound cynical but I believe that if Arafat was of some real dangerto the Israelis he would be dead or exiled now, maybe dead. If we didn't have Arafat we should have invented him.

As long as he is alive nothing will change. I am not suggesting that he must die for God's sake! I am saying that his death will mark the end of an era.

The bad thing is that USA and Israel are not prepared for a post-Arafat period. And again I don't want to sound cynical but if a civil war breaks among the Palestinians who would be stupid enough to negotiate with them?

Arafat is getting old he is not going to live forever. Since he has avoided nameing any obvious sucessor his deah will lead to a situation where no one has any real control. Extreamists seem to do well under this conditions.

 

[demon]

Ah, I`m feeling profound today.

As the Israelis turn from killing Palestinians to "self hating" each other (since the wall/fence will not keep them from being attacked very much), the Americans are going to start realizing that aid money to the Israelis is a waste, and funding for the Zionists groups will decrease. Which will be a good thing in the long run: if the Israelis want their own country, they need to work for it. Right now they're parasitic, living off aid money and Palastinian cheap labour and water, and the fact that they aren't responsible for their own survival helps encourage the irrational leadership that might bring them to their own ruin. Aid money encourages dependency, and the Israelis have spent decades now learning that dependency. It's time they start unlearning it.

I think you're missing the overall strategy right now, then. When the wall is in place, the Palestinians won't need to keep talking to the Israelis. And when Sharon can't rally the Israelis behind their murder campaign with promises of defeating Palestine they will have to reform in order to actually provide Israelis what they really need (a civil society) or, more likely, they will implode under the wave of anger from Israelis who realize that they have suffered so much because of Sharon and the rest of the gangsters with nothing to show for it.

 

[Ziggurat]

Ah, I`m feeling profound today.

As the Israelis turn from killing Palestinians to "self hating" each other (since the wall/fence will not keep them from being attacked very much), the Americans are going to start realizing that aid money to the Israelis is a waste, and funding for the Zionists groups will decrease. Which will be a good thing in the long run: if the Israelis want their own country, they need to work for it. Right now they're parasitic, living off aid money and Palastinian cheap labour and water, and the fact that they aren't responsible for their own survival helps encourage the irrational leadership that might bring them to their own ruin. Aid money encourages dependency, and the Israelis have spent decades now learning that dependency. It's time they start unlearning it.

The humor is it makes some sense up to here (though you're forgetting that the Israelis can import cheap labor from eastern Europe). Yes, with the wall in place, the Israelis WON'T need to spend as much money on security, and it'll make sense to decrease military aid to them.

I think you're missing the overall strategy right now, then. When the wall is in place, the Palestinians won't need to keep talking to the Israelis. And when Sharon can't rally the Israelis behind their murder campaign with promises of defeating Palestine they will have to reform in order to actually provide Israelis what they really need (a civil society) or, more likely, they will implode under the wave of anger from Israelis who realize that they have suffered so much because of Sharon and the rest of the gangsters with nothing to show for it.

And then you go off the deep end, and I'm not just talking about the pathetic rhetoric of equating the Israelis and the Palestinians, I'm talking basic logic. With the wall in place, the Israelis WILL have something to show for it: they will sharply decrease the number of suicide bombings. That is something that matters quite a bit to the Israelis. Guess it doesn't matter to you, though. And the Israelis already HAVE a civil society. Israeli politicians and journalists don't live in fear of being killed by street thugs. Have you not been paying attention to current events, or do you really not know what it means to have a civil society?

This sort of rhetorical trick of substitution in an argument only works if the argument still has the same logic. That you tried it even when the logic falls apart is perhaps indicative of the (ir)rationality of your own viewpoints on the subject.

 

[demon]

Was only some light relief Ziggurat.
I have set out my my positions of the Israel/Palestine conflict frequently and in detail in other threads.
To be quite honest with you I think like some of the others here, I`m getting tired of it too. When the discussion here seems to proceed quite happily without any need to include "justice" or even a recognition of the basic inhumane treatment of, and collective punishment of the Palestinians then there might be little point.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by demon
And when Sharon can't rally the Israelis behind their murder campaign with promises of defeating Palestine they will have to reform in order to actually provide Israelis what they really need (a civil society) or, more likely, they will implode under the wave of anger from Israelis who realize that they have suffered so much because of Sharon and the rest of the gangsters with nothing to show for it.

Don't you ever feel the slightest bit silly? Sharon has only been in power since 2001. It's not as though you can really blame every problem on both sides on him.

 

[demon]

"Don't you ever feel the slightest bit silly? Sharon has only been in power since 2001. It's not as though you can really blame every problem on both sides on him."

Pay attention Mycroft...I said Sharon "and the rest of the gangsters". I don`t single him out as the only robber barron leader the Israeli`s have had. They are legion.

 

[Mycroft]

Oh, I get it. You want to stop short of blaming the Israeli people because that might be seen as racist, but every elected member of the Israeli government that ever was are characterized as gangsters.

So you don't ever feel a bit silly?

 

[demon]

As I said, pay attention more often and you would know I have said in no uncertain terms that the Israelis who vote these gangsters in bear a responsibility for their leaders. Israel is a brave little democracy afterall

Mycroft:
"every elected member of the Israeli government that ever was are characterized as gangsters."

You have me confused with someone else here as I didn`t say that. You seem to be suffering from some kind of attention deficit disorder tonight Mycroft or are you are just being more idiotic and fabricating than usual?
That is a rhetorical questions by the way (pay attention Mycroft, I said "rhetorical") so I`m not interested in which one it is.

 

[Skeptic]

Oh, I get it. You want to stop short of blaming the Israeli people because that might be seen as racist, but every elected member of the Israeli government that ever was are characterized as gangsters.

So you don't ever feel a bit silly?

...especially since if there's a government today in the world made almost only of gangsters, in the most literal sense of the term, it's the palestinian government.

 

[demon]

Sharon is squeaky clean is he? ok, whatever.

 

[Mycroft]

Sharon is squeaky clean is he? ok, whatever.

Who said that?

Nobody denies Sharon is a hard-liner. The question is is his stance justified?

Personally, I think there is a lot about the man that can be criticized, but laying the blame for the whole situation at his feet is just irrational.

 

[demon]

Mycroft:
"Personally, I think there is a lot about the man that can be criticized, but laying the blame for the whole situation at his feet is just irrational."

What is it with you people? Why the hell do you keep attributing to people things that they clearly haven`t said?

 

[zenith-nadir]

See this is where Demon loses it. Sharon = gangster....Israel = zionists....Israelis = murder campaign.....


If Israel were 'gangsters' and all 'zionists' bent on a 'murder campaign' against palestinians then I am afraid Demon that the Gaza and West Bank would be fused glass by now.

Israel defeated the combined strength of the Arab armies several times, they could destroy the palestinians within a week.

I don't know how your mind has become so twisted that you feel that 35 years of terrorism against Israeli civilians! by Arafat, the PLO, Fateh, Islamic Jihad, Abul Nidal, Hamas, Hizbollah, Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), Palestine Liberation Front (PLF), Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and every other radical Islamic ideology group trying to kill jews has not had some effect on how Israel deals with the Palestinians.

All you see Demon is zionist gangsters on a murder campaign...your brain is very "selective" with history.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Friday - 5 March 2004:

1) A Kassam rocket fired by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip exploded in a parking lot in a shopping center in Sderot.

2) An anti-tank rocket was fired at an IDF post near Gadid in Gush Katif and shots were also fired at soldiers manning the position.

3) Shots were fired at an IDF post near Neveh Dekalim and another position at Rafah.

4) A mortar shell was fired at the north Gaza security fence.

5) An anti-tank rocket was fired at soldiers deployed on the Karni-Netzarim road.

6) Shots were fired at an Israeli vehicle traveling between Osarin and Tapuah south of Nablus.

7) IDF soldiers in Kalkilya blew up a bomb placed by Palestinians in the city.

8) Shots were also fired at soldiers in Faroun south of Tulkarm.


Saturday - 6 March 2004:

1) six Palestinians were killed and about 20 wounded during an abortive assault by militants in fake Israeli army jeeps at the Erez crossing. Hamas, Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades said they carried out a joint strike and pledged more attacks.

2) Shots were fired a number of times at soldiers on the Karni-Netzarim road.

3) An anti-tank rocket was fired at an Israeli convoy leaving Netzarim.




There is just two days in the life of Israel, this goes on every day, every week, every month since the 1960's....and all Demon can say is it's the Israeli gangsters bent on a murder campaign....