Palestinian Civil War?

[Grammatron]

From the article:

Unknown gunmen have shot dead a key adviser to Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat outside his office in Gaza City.
Khalil al-Zaben, a prominent journalist who also advised Mr Arafat on human rights, was struck by a dozen bullets, local Palestinian sources said.

The killing comes amid fears of growing lawlessness and chaos in Palestinian areas and eroding central control.

and also...

Journalists in Gaza staged a strike on 9 February to protest against growing attacks on reporters in the Palestinian territories:
Three weeks ago, newspaper journalist Munir Abu Rizeq reported that his car had been torched in Gaza City

In early February, the offices of the Palestinian weekly Ad-Dar were vandalised during the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Adha

On 8 January, a Gaza correspondent for the Arab television station al-Arabiya was beaten up by masked men; the station's offices in the West Bank town of Ramallah were attacked last September by masked men claiming to belong to the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades group

Since there appears to be no powerful control over Palestine, will it irrupt into a Civil War for control?

 

[geni]

Quite posibly. the trouble is hammas may win.

 

[Cleopatra]

If this happens, if they start to kill each other over control I think that EU is the one who must be blamed and I will explain why I think so.

There has been an effort on behalf of USA to remove Arafat. Arafat is corrupted and his name is connected with every sort of scandals and he has proven many times that he is not a trustworthy person to negotiate with.

On the other hand Israel and USA didn't make any serious effort to create a post-Arafat political status. The only serious effort that has been made was to support Abu Mazen but EU did whatever was possible to undermine him by recognizing as leader of the Palestinians Yasser Arafat.

See what do we have now.

If Palestinians resort to civil war this will be a total success and justification of the policy of Ariel Sharon.

When the pacifists in Israel were shouting for help towards the EU, when they asked EU to exercise pressure towards Y.Arafat and support politically Mazen who was the ideal transitory PM for the Palestinians what did they do? They accepted Arafat in negotiations behind Mazen's back and they were discussing if Hamas has a political wing.

I hope that people will realize that a Palestinian civil war now will be a gravestone on Palestine and it will be a tremendous political victory of Ariel Sharon.

I think though that it's wise to wait for a while. I will be following the Lebanese Daily Star for some days ( this is my barometer) and see how those news reflect first on the groups of PLO in Lebanon and then in Syria. This the way to see if those incidents have some significance. In my opinion the fact that BBC reports them has some value but you cannot make predictions based of what western media think.

 

[geni]

You think Abu Mazen could have stood up to hammas?

 

[Cleopatra]

I believe that he was a good option to lead to the creation of a Palestinian State and then open the way to a different status that would include Hammas former militants. He was a trustworthy negotiator and he is devoted to his people.

 

[geni]

I believe that he was a good option to lead to the creation of a Palestinian State and then open the way to a different status that would include Hammas former militants. He was a trustworthy negotiator and he is devoted to his people.

Well He is almost certainly more trustworthy than Arafat. But how long do you think he could have sttod up tp Arafat for? Would Arafat have been prepared to give up power in order to alow palistine a better norgating postion? I find this unlikly.

 

[Cleopatra]

Well He is almost certainly more trustworthy than Arafat. But how long do you think he could have sttod up tp Arafat for? Would Arafat have been prepared to give up power in order to alow palistine a better norgating postion? I find this unlikly.

Well why to give up power when French and Greek ministers( Greece had the Presidency of EU that period) who visited the area were meeting him apart from Mazen?

How this reflected on him? What people in Palestine believed? That Mazen was nothing but a pawn of the Americans that Europeans did not recognize.

It is characteristic and proverbial what a european member of this forum has posted when I pointed to her that fact:

"Come-on! Everybody in Europe knew from the first moment that the Road Map would collapse".

 

[geni]

Well why to give up power when French and Greek ministers( Greece had the Presidency of EU that period) who visited the area were meeting him apart from Mazen?

How this reflected on him? What people in Palestine believed? That Mazen was nothing but a pawn of the Americans that Europeans did not recognize.

That I think that Arafat is the only person who can for now stand up to the exteam exteamists will give you some idea how hopless I think the whole sititation is. What if the Europeans had talked to Mazen? Either they would have found it pointless due to Arafats mederling or Arafat would have just acted against Mazen. Whie Arafat is alive he is the most powerful and any apprent outside attempts to change that are going to be resisted by both him and his supporters.
What can be done about this? I don't know. While Arafat is alive I don't think there will be peace but I think his death will make things worse.
We are here and this is now Arafat is a fact that has to worked with. He can't be sidelined he can't be trusted. From what I have seen Arafats main interest is staying in power. If the people want peace he will work for it if they don't he wont. We can't work with the leaders we have to work with the people.

 

[Segnosaur]

Quite posibly. the trouble is hammas may win.

Hammas winning would be very ugly, at least in the short term.

But, I wonder if it wouldn't be better in the long run? For years, Palestine has been controlled by people who pretended to want peace (Arafat), yet had no problem with the suicide bombers, intifada, etc. Yet much of the world thought he was innocent. So, there was a stalemate.

Perhaps if more 'radical' groups take control, the pro-Palestinian governments in Europe won't be so quick to condem Israel for defending itself. (Its easier to criticize Israel for its actions if its enemy pretends it wants peace, even if its a lie, than to criticize it when its enemy openly says it wants to destroy it.) It may even make the avearage palestinian realize that perhaps coexistance with Israel isn't too bad after all.

 

[geni]

But, I wonder if it wouldn't be better in the long run? For years, Palestine has been controlled by people who pretended to want peace (Arafat), yet had no problem with the suicide bombers, intifada, etc. Yet much of the world thought he was innocent. So, there was a stalemate.

Perhaps if more 'radical' groups take control, the pro-Palestinian governments in Europe won't be so quick to condem Israel for defending itself. (Its easier to criticize Israel for its actions if its enemy pretends it wants peace, even if its a lie, than to criticize it when its enemy openly says it wants to destroy it.) It may even make the avearage palestinian realize that perhaps coexistance with Israel isn't too bad after all.

They might not be so quick to cendem Israel but so what? Is defending Israel fromm critism all that matters? You think that Israel acting with critism will make the problem go away? Well it might but only if Israel is prepared to wipe out every Palistian. It has already been shown that even the IDF can't win a gurilla war so that is the only option. You have hammas in charge you get an entire generation brain washed even further than they are at the momenet. We have a situtationt where there is no one to talk to no one who will even consider peace as an option.

 

[Segnosaur]

They might not be so quick to cendem Israel but so what? Is defending Israel fromm critism all that matters? You think that Israel acting with critism will make the problem go away? Well it might but only if Israel is prepared to wipe out every Palistian.

Who says they'd have to wipe out 'every last' Palistinian? There are many small ways that a more pro-Israel attitude in Europe and elsewhere in the world woudl help Israel...

- Some countries don't consider groups like Hamas to be terrorists; they allow fundraising, recruitment, etc. (See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3026992.stm). A more radical leadership in Palestine might make them rethink that. (Note: Last I heard, the EU did list Hamas as a terrorist group; however, it took a long time to do that, and that makes me question their conviction.)

- Other middle east countries have supported the Palestinians because they claim they are 'freedom fighters' (I'm sure Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. don't really believe that, but because the rest of the world is fooled they feel confident in making that claim.) If Hamas takes over, other Islamic nations might back off, realizing that they can't keep claiming to support 'freedom fighters' when the people running Israel are too radical

You have hammas in charge you get an entire generation brain washed even further than they are at the momenet.

Is that even possible?

 

[geni]

Who says they'd have to wipe out 'every last' Palistinian? There are many small ways that a more pro-Israel attitude in Europe and elsewhere in the world woudl help Israel...

You start killing you not going to be able to stop untill you have finished

- Some countries don't consider groups like Hamas to be terrorists; they allow fundraising, recruitment, etc. (See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3026992.stm). A more radical leadership in Palestine might make them rethink that. (Note: Last I heard, the EU did list Hamas as a terrorist group; however, it took a long time to do that, and that makes me question their conviction.)

The problem is you have to talk to someone. We know that shinfane (sp) has links (quite a lot in fact) to the IRA we still talked to them and out of that we got closer to peace on NI than we have in a long time. Hammas have made it clear they can't be talked to.

- Other middle east countries have supported the Palestinians because they claim they are 'freedom fighters' (I'm sure Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. don't really believe that, but because the rest of the world is fooled they feel confident in making that claim.) If Hamas takes over, other Islamic nations might back off, realizing that they can't keep claiming to support 'freedom fighters' when the people running Israel are too radical

Iran at least is supporting hammas now not sure about Saudi Arabia.

Is that even possible?

Yes at the moment they are only taught to hate Israel.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by geni
They might not be so quick to cendem Israel but so what? Is defending Israel fromm critism all that matters? You think that Israel acting with critism will make the problem go away?

No, what matters is that people are dying and will continue to die. However, the first step to solving a problem is getting a clear idea of what the problem is.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Since there appears to be no powerful control over Palestine, will it irrupt into a Civil War for control?

I have been saying this for a long time. Arafat has so corrupted the Gaza and West Bank with terror, corruption, militias, cronies and henchmen over the past decades that now all those monsters he's been feeding with foreign aid money have started to turn on each other and the Palestinian Authority.

People think it's all Israels fault, that the settlements make palestinians act this way that the 'wall' makes palestinians act this way, that IDF raids make palestinians act this way, that Sharon makes palestinians act this way .

BULLSH*T.

Arafat has sold peace to the english speaking west ever since he went to the UN wearing a gun!, (red flag #1), while he declares war in arabic throughtout the arab world even today. And people bought his B.S. 'act' hook, line and sinker.

Now the evil he has spawned has grown like a cancer and infected the West Bank and Gaza.


From today:
Hamas, Jihad botch attack on Erez Junction - Mar. 6, 2004

Using two jeeps disguised to look like IDF vehicles, Palestinians launched an attack on Israeli positions around the Erez Crossing at Gaza on Saturday, the IDF confirmed. No Israelis were injured, but a number of Palestinians were killed.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack, calling it a joint "self-sacrifice operation" in a message posted on the Hamas Web site.

In the area of the crossing where laborers generally enter Israel, an attacker got out of one of the jeeps and began firing on soldiers, who returned fire, killing him.

Shortly afterwards, soldiers spotted an additional jeep and fired upon it. It blew up, killing at least three Palestinian policemen and one or two attackers inside.

Where do all Gazan Palestinians have to go to work in Israel? Erez Crossing at Gaza. The same crossing a palestinian mother of two blew herself up in a couple months ago.

The Hamas and Islamic Jihad don't care about palestinians or how they will feed their families, all they care about is killing jews with thier endless supply of brainwashed 72-virgin martyrs.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Here's more:

Losing authority - Mar. 4, 2004

By KHALED ABU TOAMEH -

'My husband is the victim of anarchy," murmured Um Fadi, the widow of Khalil Zaban, a prominent Palestinian journalist and human rights activist who was murdered in Gaza City on Tuesday. "He never did anything bad to anyone. I never imagined that the situation would deteriorate to such a low level."

Her daughter, Zainab, was more blunt: "These are gangs, a Mafia. I'm not afraid to say so. My father served the Palestinian cause for 40 years, and this is what he received in response."

It is highly unlikely that the Palestinian security forces in the Gaza Strip would ever lay their hands on Zaban's assassins. These forces have failed to resolve similar attacks on journalists, newspaper offices, TV and radio studios, PA institutions and officials, and political activists belonging to various factions.

(and the Palestinian Authority is suppose to arrest people who attack jews when they won't even arrest people who kill palestinians?!?!?!....Oh the irony!)

"There is total chaos in the West Bank and Gaza Strip," a former Palestinian cabinet minister said in response to the killing of Zaban. "Unfortunately, I think this assassination is just the beginning. The Palestinian Authority is very weak and is losing control over the situation.

Explains a senior Fatah official: "Arafat considers the armed men to be his soldiers on the ground. He relies on them more than the security forces. That's why he pays them salaries and stays in touch with them. Sometimes he personally speaks to the leaders of the Aksa Martyrs Brigades in Jenin, Nablus, and Tulkarm. This is Arafat's way of surviving."

Interesting huh?....Arafat pays salaries and speaks to the leaders of the Aksa Martyrs Brigades in Jenin, Nablus, and Tulkarm. Which is in direct contravention of Oslo 1&2, Wye River, Sharm El Shek and every other treaty Arafat has signed with Israel, the USA and E.U.

 

[Ziggurat]

They might not be so quick to cendem Israel but so what? Is defending Israel fromm critism all that matters?

I don't think that's really the issue. But as the Palestinians turn from killing Israelis to killing each other (since the wall/fence will keep them from doing the former very much), the Europeans are going to start realizing that aid money to the Palestinians is a waste, and funding for these groups will decrease. Which will be a good thing in the long run: if the Palestinians want their own country, they need to work for it. Right now they're parasitic, living off aid money and Israeli jobs, and the fact that they aren't responsible for their own survival helps encourage the irrational leadership that has brought them to their own ruin. Aid money encourages dependency, and the Palestinians have spent decades now learning that dependency. It's time they start unlearning it.

You have hammas in charge you get an entire generation brain washed even further than they are at the momenet. We have a situtationt where there is no one to talk to no one who will even consider peace as an option.

I think you're missing the overall strategy right now, then. When the wall is in place, the Israelis won't need to keep talking to the Palestinians. And when Hamas can't rally the Palestinians behind their murder campaign with promises of defeating Israel (a completed wall will be the deathknell for that fantasy), they will have to reform in order to actually provide Palestinians what they really need (a civil society) or, more likely, they will implode under the wave of anger from Palestinians who realize that they have suffered so much because of Hamas with nothing to show for it.

 

[Cleopatra]

Ziggurat I am shocked my friend. Is this what you think of the Palestinians?

They are not parasitic they are miserable people you know.

 

[Ziggurat]

Ziggurat I am shocked my friend. Is this what you think of the Palestinians?

They are not parasitic they are miserable people you know.

I'm not sure exactly how to read your statement - the smiley suggests you're being a little flippant, but since this is a touchy topic, I don't want to assume anything or attribute an opinion to you in either direction if it's not obvious to me.

I know the Palestinians are miserable. And when I say they are parasitic, I do not mean that on an individual level, I am refering to the political and economic structures within which they live. The good news is structures can change, they are not inherent to people. But I do not believe that these structures will change unless and until they collapse. And that is why I want them to collapse: I do not wish the Palestinians to be miserable, but they are miserable already, and their own social structures and corrupt leadership are the greatest source of that misery. And this is the only way that I can forsee any of that changing - all the concessions in the world that Israel could ever make will amount to nothing for the Palestinian people if their current leadership retains power.

 

[Skeptic]

I don't think that's really the issue. But as the Palestinians turn from killing Israelis to killing each other (since the wall/fence will keep them from doing the former very much), the Europeans are going to start realizing that aid money to the Palestinians is a waste,

If that's what would happen, it would be interesting to see the EU leaders explaining why it was OK to give money to Arafat as long as he was chiefly concerned with using it to kill jews, but not OK when he's killing other Palestinians.

(Not that Arafat didn't kill palestinians before, of course.)

 

[zenith-nadir]

... the Europeans are going to start realizing that aid money to the Palestinians is a waste, If that's what would happen, it would be interesting to see the EU leaders explaining why it was OK to give money to Arafat as long as he was chiefly concerned with using it to kill jews, but not OK when he's killing other Palestinians.

Get ready to laugh...in a ironic/sad kinda way...

EU funding to the Palestinian Authority - E.U. website

Brussels, 6 February 2003 - Since November 2000 the European Commission, with the full backing of Member States (confirmed most recently at the European Council in Copenhagen last December) and of the European Parliament, has been providing budgetary support to the Palestinian Authority....

The Commission has fully investigated repeated allegations that some of these budgetary payments may have been misused. No evidence to that effect has yet come to light, but we have shared all information at our disposal with the European Parliament, and made it public.

(Further on, Commissioner Patten responds to a letter from Mr. Laschet, MEP)

Let me make one thing very clear: the European Commission will never accept EU funds being diverted into the hands of terrorists.

The Commission has examined all documents which have been made available to us by the Israeli authorities. To date we have found no evidence that EU monies have been misused by the Palestinian Authority in order to finance terrorist activities, or for anything other than their agreed purpose.

So much for the E.U.'s investigative abilities....