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Padilla finally charged

Still very curious about this, a couple of questions.

What safeguards are in place to make sure that they 'have the right man'? In this insatance, perhaps, it is clear but if a prisoner has no right to trial, how can they be sure? Isn't he still innocent in the eyes of the law?

What is to prevent this power being used on political opponents of the government, rather than, for want of a better term, enemies of the state?
 
There are those of us who remember that Richard Nixon used the IRS against his political enemies, and shudder at the very thought of what you just said.
 
*snip*

Gymnasia? Like the Greek word "Gymnos"??? Does this mean the SA and SS started out as a naked athlete/warrior fraternity? :eek: But all kidding aside; I do not dispute this point...

Physical fitness was very important for those Nazi-type guys. You know, master race, superiority, and all that. Dunno about the "naked" part (and most certainly not naked females :( ) but sports, exercise, physical health and that kind of stuff was an important part of maintaining or achieving a "gesunder Volkskörper" - roughly, a healthy population body, which also included the well-known purges of non-Aryan groups...

*snip*
but as you know we can't go around arresting citizens for the stuff they might be thinking of doing someday....right?

-z

Isn´t that what is done to quite a lot "terrorist suspects"?
 
Grab them off the street? Detain them indefinitely in undisclosed locations? Torture them? Kill a few? Hand over some others to foreign powers to be tortured at arm's length? Ignore Supreme Court orders that they be given legal counsel?

I'm just asking for consistency here, towards people vaguely associated (allegedly) with groups who use violence against US citizens for political ends.

If there is a problem with treating alleged Aryan Nation members and associates this way, there surely is a problem dealing with alleged Al Qaeda members and associates this way. If the issue is really about protecting US citizens from politically motivated violence anyway.

The problem with your argument is that Aryan Nation is not analogous to Al Qaeda. You cannot logically argue that a group which has caused thousands of deaths and billions in property damage. A group which threatens further violence and death on a larger scale than 9/11. A group which has the clandestined support of several sovereign states as well as majority or near majority overt and tacit support of the world's fastest growing religion... You can't seriously equate such a dangerous world-wide terrorist network such as AQ to the Aryan Nation kooks...that's not consistency; it's nonsense.

-z
 
There are those of us who remember that Richard Nixon used the IRS against his political enemies, and shudder at the very thought of what you just said.
There are also some of us who don't remember, and they think the idea of wielding power against their enemies is peachy keen.

Clearly, society must be purged of this disruptive element.
 
Isn´t that what is done to quite a lot "terrorist suspects"?

Not that I know of. If you are thinking of Padilla in this context you'd be mistaken. He was known to be a member of AQ; a trainee @ AQ camps in Afghanistan; and suspected of planning a radiological bomb attack. His known association with AQ is really all they needed to pick him up and hold him as an enemy combatant. Cylinder has posted lots of relevant info in this very thread.

-z
 
Not that I know of. If you are thinking of Padilla in this context you'd be mistaken. He was known to be a member of AQ; a trainee @ AQ camps in Afghanistan; and suspected of planning a radiological bomb attack. His known association with AQ is really all they needed to pick him up and hold him as an enemy combatant. Cylinder has posted lots of relevant info in this very thread.

-z

Known? Show a plane ticket from Kabul. In an actual court, show an AQ membership card. Show the AQ membership application form mentioned in the Mobbs statement. Then you can talk about 'known'.

Padilla has been accused. Due process requires evaluating actual evidence before reaching a verdict.
 
Known? Show a plane ticket from Kabul. In an actual court, show an AQ membership card. Show the AQ membership application form mentioned in the Mobbs statement. Then you can talk about 'known'.

Padilla has been accused. Due process requires evaluating actual evidence before reaching a verdict.

OK. We understand that you would realease them all without more proof than most courts would require, and you would dismiss all evidence from other sources as unreliable (or unreliably obtained), and you would open the books on all intelligence obtained not to mention the sources and methods.

Some people would consider that a hell of a way to conduct a war, but of course you don't think there is a war, do you? From that latter premise, I suppose I would have to conceed that you would be right.
 
Known? Show a plane ticket from Kabul. In an actual court, show an AQ membership card. Show the AQ membership application form mentioned in the Mobbs statement. Then you can talk about 'known'.

Padilla has been accused. Due process requires evaluating actual evidence before reaching a verdict.

You've been hand fed all the pertinent information on Padilla's case by Cylinder. You may disagree with the law...but it is still the law. Due process for Padilla is free room and board until the WoT is over.

Sucks for him....but them's the breaks.

-z
 
Known? Show a plane ticket from Kabul. In an actual court, show an AQ membership card. Show the AQ membership application form mentioned in the Mobbs statement. Then you can talk about 'known'.

Padilla has been accused. Due process requires evaluating actual evidence before reaching a verdict.

That would have been my objections, too. Plus, I sure you could fine a couple of MOM, Aryan Nations etc guys still running around free in your country for whom that description fits, too.
 
OK. We understand that you would realease them all without more proof than most courts would require, and you would dismiss all evidence from other sources as unreliable (or unreliably obtained), and you would open the books on all intelligence obtained not to mention the sources and methods.

Some people would consider that a hell of a way to conduct a war, but of course you don't think there is a war, do you? From that latter premise, I suppose I would have to conceed that you would be right.

That looks like the imperial 'WE'. Look back at your post and see if you can find where you couldn't defend your weak position, so you misrepresented mine, then attacked your misrepresentation. See that? So can everybody else.

If there is evidence, make a case, file charges, hold a trial. So far, accusations and assertions have been presented as if they counted for evidence. This is horse manure.

There was a simple and straightforward mechanism for dealing with Padilla, but that opportunity has passed. Now things are complicated and ugly, and no conclusion will be satisfactory. Thanks again to the current administration for imperially screwing things up.
 
You've been hand fed all the pertinent information on Padilla's case by Cylinder. You may disagree with the law...but it is still the law. Due process for Padilla is free room and board until the WoT is over.

Sucks for him....but them's the breaks.

-z

I don't disagree with the law at all. Thanks to Cylinder for pointing out the part of the Hamdi decision which lays out the government responsibilites in this case. You don't have to be a legal scholar to see that the law, and due process, have not been followed.
 
The problem with your argument is that Aryan Nation is not analogous to Al Qaeda. You cannot logically argue that a group which has caused thousands of deaths and billions in property damage. A group which threatens further violence and death on a larger scale than 9/11. A group which has the clandestined support of several sovereign states as well as majority or near majority overt and tacit support of the world's fastest growing religion... You can't seriously equate such a dangerous world-wide terrorist network such as AQ to the Aryan Nation kooks...that's not consistency; it's nonsense.

Credibly threatens more and worse attacks than 9/11? Evidence?

Majority overt support from Muslims? Or even, if you are going to use those back doors you built in to their fullest extent, near-majority tacit support from Muslims? Evidence?

(What precisely are you trying to imply by "support" for that matter? "Support" can mean that they donate money and hide terrorists in their loft, or it can mean that they sympathise to some extent with some of Al Qaeda's stated goals).

World-wide network? Seeing as we have heard that Al Qaeda is closer to a unifying idea than a network per se, I want evidence for that too.

If we are dealing with the real movement called Al Qaeda, as opposed to the James Bond worldwide conspiracy with a secret undergound base in a volcano version, I see no reason to assume right off the bat that any given person associated with Al Qaeda is necessarily more of a danger to US citizens than any given person associated with violent anti-abortion groups or violent racist groups.
 
If you're looking for evidence of the threat, keep in mind, Kevin, that Al Jazeera provides that frequently for any and all who care to tune in. They even repeat OBL's threats when they seem to think we're not paying attention.

Another point is that AQ tends to work in "stateless" countries, where there is no government. This provides for them a base of operations. They've already shown they intend to be a genuine threat to Americans and anyone whom they believe are helping or being helped by this nation and its allies. They have received material support from rogue states, as Cylinder, I believe, has pointed out.

Violent anti abortion groups are a threat, but I've yet to see any evidence of them hijacking jets or trying to purchase nuclear fissionable material. Nor have I seen any evidence of them trying to "weaponize" Anthrax or Smallpox. Ditto the neo-Nazi cowards.
 
There are also some of us who don't remember, and they think the idea of wielding power against their enemies is peachy keen.

Clearly, society must be purged of this disruptive element.

How? When I see both liberals and conservatives (note lower case) saying that one or the other should be banned from public discourse, or when I see Ad Homs becoming de rigeur (hope I spelled that right) in debate, I don't see how we can purge that sort of crap.
 
Credibly threatens more and worse attacks than 9/11? Evidence?
  • Ramzi Yousef's "Project Bojinka" to simultaneously bomb 20 US airliners over the Pacific Ocean using AQ linked Abu Sayyef operatives.
  • The Padilla and Muhajir mission directed by Abu Zubeida (AQ operations chief) to explode radiological bombs in US cities.
  • The AQ plot to poison the London water supply with ricin. Another London based AQ cell was busted with a half-ton of ammonium nitrate to be used in an Oklahoma City style attack.
  • On the anniversary of 9/11 A-Q released a tape of "Azzam the American" making such threats against Los Angeles, CA and Melbourne, Australia. He claimed that we should "expect no restraint".

Luckily we have been smart enough to take the fight to them since 9/11 instead of waiting for them to do yet worse. Or do you suppose that the reason they have not yet had a single successful attack on American soil since 9/11 is because they can't be bothered?

Majority overt support from Muslims? Or even, if you are going to use those back doors you built in to their fullest extent, near-majority tacit support from Muslims? Evidence?

UBL enjoys quite a lot of support in the Muslim world:
Edited to add: The pic won't load but it showed a tsunami relief worker wearing a UBL tee-shirt.

There's also this account of ME reaction to 9/11 posted to Snopes as researched fact:
Trying to find our bearings, my husband and I went into an American-style cafe in the Hamra district, near Rue Verdun, rated as one of the most expensive shopping streets in the world. Here the cognitive dissonance was immediate, and direct. The café's sophisticated clientele was celebrating, laughing, cheering and making jokes, as waiters served hamburgers and Diet Pepsi. Nobody looked shocked, or moved. They were excited, very excited.

An hour later, at a little market near the U.S. Embassy, on the outskirts of Beirut, a thrilled shop assistant showed us, using his hands, how the plane had crashed into the twin towers. He, too, was laughing.

Once back at the house where we were staying, we started scanning the international channels. Soon came reports of Palestinians celebrating. The BBC reporter in Jerusalem said it was only a tiny minority. Astonished, we asked some moderate Arabs if that was the case. "Nonsense," said one, speaking for many. "Ninety percent of the Arab world believes that Americans got what they deserved."

An exaggeration? Rather an understatement. A couple of days later, we headed north to Tripoli, near the Syrian border. On the way, we read that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, who donated blood in front of the cameras, was rejecting any suggestion that his people were rejoicing over the terrorist attack. "It was less than 10 children in Jerusalem," he said.

(What precisely are you trying to imply by "support" for that matter? "Support" can mean that they donate money and hide terrorists in their loft, or it can mean that they sympathise to some extent with some of Al Qaeda's stated goals).

It can and does mean all of that.
World-wide network? Seeing as we have heard that Al Qaeda is closer to a unifying idea than a network per se, I want evidence for that too.

You need to watch more news.
If we are dealing with the real movement called Al Qaeda, as opposed to the James Bond worldwide conspiracy with a secret undergound base in a volcano version, I see no reason to assume right off the bat that any given person associated with Al Qaeda is necessarily more of a danger to US citizens than any given person associated with violent anti-abortion groups or violent racist groups.

Now you're speaking about individuals who happen to be members of group X and Y rather than the actual danger that group X is capable of versus Y. Yes I'm sure there may be some dangerous characters amongst the nutters who make up Aryan Nations...but as a whole AN is far less of a threat to Joe Average than AQ is.

-z

BTW: I've given my reasons...now can we hear why you happen to think that a group such as AN or KKK is as or more dangerous than AQ?
 
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Look back at Hamdi. Pretty clearly, the President has exceeded his authority as commander-in-chief.

There is no getting around the fact that the Court had some procedural objections with the government's handling of Yaser Hamdi, though I think it's a stretch to assert that President Bush exceeded his authority. To quote the O'Connor opinion:

The threshold question before us is whether the Executive has the authority to detain citizens who qualify as “enemy combatants.”

To which the Court answered:

We conclude that detention of individuals falling into the limited category we are considering, for the duration of the particular conflict in which they were captured, is so fundamental and accepted an incident to war as to be an exercise of the “necessary and appropriate force” Congress has authorized the President to use.

and

There is no bar to this Nation’s holding one of its own citizens as an enemy combatant. In Quirin, one of the detainees, Haupt, alleged that he was a naturalized United States citizen.

That clearly establishes that the the President acted within his authority in ordering Hamdi's detention. As posted above, the Court took a dim view, nevertheless, on the government's assertion that "because it is 'undisputed' that Hamdi’s seizure took place in a combat zone, the habeas determination can be made purely as a matter of law, with no further hearing or factfinding necessary."

What is equally as clear is that the government never chose to argue that - unlike non-citizen enemy combatants - citizens have a constitutional right to file habeas petitions until such time as Congress suspends this right under Article I; Section 9 of the US Constitution:

The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

In conceding the privilege of habeas writs, the government also concedes the final judgment of the judiciary in this matter.

Padilla was not captured on the battlefield or even in a foreign country, so your version of 'well-established executive power' is not actually well established.

No. When I used the phrase "well-established" I was including US citizens determined to be enemy combatants regardless of their location at the time of detention. In Hamdi, the Court wrote:

There is no bar to this Nation’s holding one of its own citizens as an enemy combatant. In Quirin, one of the detainees, Haupt, alleged that he was a naturalized United States citizen.

What were the circumstances behind Herbet Hans Haupt's detention?

Haupt was a US citizen who traveled to Germany before the start of the war. The government alleged that during this time Haupt received secret training on the use of explosives and secret communication methods and were sent back to the United States on June 17, 1942 to carry out attacks. He was captured in New York City in civilian clothes before any attacks actually took place. On the order of President Roosevelt, Haupt was declared an enemy combatant and subsequently faced a military tribunal.

Because of his failure to wear "a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance", to "carry arms openly" and to "conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war" , Haupt was denied designation as a POW relevant to the Annex of the Hague Convention IV of 1907 - which governed POW detention at that time. Haupt was sentenced to death and executed in the electric chair on August 8, 1942 - a mere five months after his adventure began.

Other cases of US citizens who faced detention as enemy combatants and subsequent military tribunals:

T. E. Hogg: Captured in Panama while dressed as a civilian. The government alleged that Hogg boarded a US-flagged merchant steamer for the purpose of overtaking the vessel and converting it into a Confederate warship. Hogg was sentenced to death - the sentence was subsequently commuted to life in prison.

John Y. Beall - Captured in New York while dressed as a civilian. The government alleged that Beall and some associates overtook a Canadian steamer, disembarked on US soil on the shores of Lake Erie and attempted to derail a train in New York state. Beall was hanged.

Robert C. Kennedy - Captured in New York City. The government alleged that Kennedy tried to set fires in various parts of the city as an "undertaking to carry on irregular and unlawful warfare." Kennedy was hanged.

William Murphy - Captured at an unknown location. The government alleged that Murphy was "a rebel emissary in the employ of and colleagued with rebel enemies" and that Murphy crossed Union lines and burned a US steamship.

Some more US citizens who were designated by Pres. Lincoln to face military tribunals:

Charles H. Clifford - May 18, 1863
William S. Waller - Aug. 4, 1863
Alfred Yates and George W. Casey - Nov. 28, 1863
James R. Holton and James Taylor - May 13, 1864
James McGregory - June 4, 1864
E.S. Dodd - Jan. 5, 1864

This is not a comprehensive list, just a few cases cited in Quirin v. Cox.

To quote the Court in Quirin:

Citizenship in the United States of an enemy belligerent does not relieve him from the consequences of a belligerency which is unlawful because in violation of the law of war. Citizens who associate themselves with the military arm of the enemy government, and with its aid, [317 U.S. 1, 38] guidance and direction enter this country bent on hostile acts are enemy belligerents within the meaning of the Hague Convention and the law of war. Cf. Gates v. Goodloe, 101 U.S. 612, 615 , 617 S., 618. It is as an enemy belligerent that petitioner Haupt is charged with entering the United States, and unlawful belligerency is the gravamen of the offense of which he is accused.

Nor are petitioners any the less belligerents if, as they argue, they have not actually committed or attempted to commit any act of depredation or entered the theatre or zone of active military operations. The argument leaves out of account the nature of the offense which the Government charges and which the Act of Congress, by incorporating the law of war, punishes. It is that each petitioner, in circumstances which gave him the status of an enemy belligerent, passed our military and naval lines and defenses or went behind those lines, in civilian dress and with hostile purpose. The offense was complete when with that purpose they entered-or, having so entered, they remained upon-our territory in time of war without uniform or other appropriate means of identification. For that reason, even when committed by a citizen, the offense is distinct from the crime of treason defined in Article III, 3 of the Constitution, since the absence of uniform essential to one is irrelevant to the other.

The same opinion goes into great detail on the well-established nature of these principles - tracing them back to before the founding of this country.

Why would the President (not really a detail kind of guy) bother to make a special case for Padilla?

Why isn't exactly a constitutional issue. I can only speculate as to the competing forces at work here. The military prosecutor may have had doubts about his ability to prosecute the war crimes charges against Padilla. The Justice Department may have wanted Padilla as their own. The Justice Department may have wanted to hold of on court appeals on the issue of military tribunals. The President may have wanted the case against Padilla in the public record. Until Congress says otherwise, the decision is his alone.

Why would he devote that much attention to what should have been a technical detail?

Some detail! Whether or not to try Padilla as an enemy combatant is probably made at the very highest level of government. At any rate, it the president who holds that sole power at this point. No-one else could execute such an order under under the current rules.

Why publicize Padilla?

Yup. Never heard of Padilla before this development. Not once.
 
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Because of his failure to wear "a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance", to "carry arms openly" and to "conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war" , Haupt was denied designation as a POW relevant to the Annex of the Hague Convention IV of 1907 - which governed POW detention at that time. Haupt was sentenced to death and executed in the electric chair on August 8, 1942 - a mere five months after his adventure began.
Note the phrase: 'sentenced to death'.
This implies that some kind of due process was followed - start to finish in a mere 5 months. Your other examples also mention charges and hearings and sentencing.

For Padilla, it has been more than 3 years and the allegations he was picked up on have still not been translated into any kind of charges for either civilian or military courts to consider. This is not due process.
 
That looks like the imperial 'WE'. Look back at your post and see if you can find where you couldn't defend your weak position, so you misrepresented mine, then attacked your misrepresentation. See that? So can everybody else.

If there is evidence, make a case, file charges, hold a trial. So far, accusations and assertions have been presented as if they counted for evidence. This is horse manure.

There was a simple and straightforward mechanism for dealing with Padilla, but that opportunity has passed. Now things are complicated and ugly, and no conclusion will be satisfactory. Thanks again to the current administration for imperially screwing things up.

Our legal system that you so defend constantly, makes deals and compromises every days (don't you watch the TV shows?). It seems to me that in this case they, our elected government, like it or not, have decided, as usually happens, to press the charges that they can present evidence in court on; given that our criminal system is designed for full disclosure and and not able to handle what might be called wartime information.

Sure they could have saved a lot of hassle and critique by doing the same a year or two ago (within days or weeks according to some).

I, unlike you, am inclined to think that there were reasons for that delay. Partly based on evidence issues and partly based on legal precedence matters, which is what we have been debating all this time.

You don't seem to like to hold opinions on guilt or innocence and seem to think that it is always the authority that is the most guilty party.
 
Our legal system that you so defend constantly, makes deals and compromises every days (don't you watch the TV shows?). It seems to me that in this case they, our elected government, like it or not, have decided, as usually happens, to press the charges that they can present evidence in court on; given that our criminal system is designed for full disclosure and and not able to handle what might be called wartime information.

Sure they could have saved a lot of hassle and critique by doing the same a year or two ago (within days or weeks according to some).

I, unlike you, am inclined to think that there were reasons for that delay. Partly based on evidence issues and partly based on legal precedence matters, which is what we have been debating all this time.

You don't seem to like to hold opinions on guilt or innocence and seem to think that it is always the authority that is the most guilty party.


1 - No, I don't watch the TV shows. If the government has evidence of something like spying, then they can present that evidence in the appropriate trial setting - military, if needed to protect wartime information. But it had better be wartime information that needs protecting.

2 - My original point was that dealing with Padilla timely would have prevented much of the criticism that the administration now faces (well, to be precise, my original point was that the administration looks like a bunch of idiots for their handling of this affair).

3 - I don't care what the reasons for delay were. The government is responsible for following proper procedures, and the clock started ticking when they locked Padilla up. I do not accept that reasons of expedience trump due process.

4 - I don't know, and I really don't care whether Padilla is guilty or innocent. Those chips can fall where they may. I do care that the nitwits in authority are screwing around with our civil rights and due process. The burden of proof is on those making the accusations. Those in authority have an obligation to do things right.
 
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