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Osama found using Gitmo torture info

EGarrett said:
That has nothing to do with what I said.
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then you don't know what you are saying
heres some links to help you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_service
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Intelligence_Agency

now you were saying that its unfair that the C.I.A. don't fully disclose all their intelligence data gained through torture.....
How many false leads did we get from torture info? How many people did we torture who didn't actually know the things we wanted to find out? It's quite dishonest to never mention any of the many misses and then jump up and down when there's a hit.
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who exactly did you want them to disclose the data to for it to be honest ?
:D
 
Marduk said:
then you don't know what you are saying
...
now you were saying that its unfair that the C.I.A. don't fully disclose all their intelligence data gained through torture.....
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He knows what he's saying (and it's not that). You just didn't understand what you read.

Marduk said:
who exactly did you want them to disclose the data to for it to be honest ?
:D
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He wasn't talking about the CIA's honesty, but the honesty of the people who are now using the killing of Osama as evidence that torturing people is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
 
Osama found using Gitmo torture info
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Doesn't look like it.

...a closer look at prisoner interrogations suggests that the harsh techniques played a small role at most in identifying Bin Laden’s trusted courier and exposing his hide-out. One detainee who apparently was subjected to some tough treatment provided a crucial description of the courier, according to current and former officials briefed on the interrogations. But two prisoners who underwent some of the harshest treatment — including Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who was waterboarded 183 times — repeatedly misled their interrogators about the courier’s identity.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/04/us/politics/04torture.html?hp

Sen. Dianne Feinstein, chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said Tuesday that none of the information that led to the killing of terrorist Osama bin Laden came from torture or harsh detention policies practiced under the Bush administration.
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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/05/03/MN2H1JB94F.DTL
 
Kev The Green said:
The average American is affected by organised criminals far more than by terrorists. Seems to me, if I'm OK with using torture to stop "terrorism", then I should also be OK with using torture domestically. The only real difference between the two cases is that in the latter case friends and family might be affected as opposed to just faceless Muslims.
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Quoted For Truth.
 
And what information did we not get because we tortured?
 
So...some now claim OBL was found because of some information gleened six years ago + as a result of torture.

First, if true...and it isn't at all clear that it is true...it does little to help the arguments of torture proponets who often argue the "ticking time bomb" as reason to engage in torture. Six years is a lot of ticking.

Second, you have to assume...and why you would isn't clear to me...that the information possibly gained through torture wouldn't have been uncovered in any other way over that six years. Keeping in mind that OBL, apparently, wasn't on the move but has been at this location seemingly for a number of years. And, while it was an exersize in speculation, the U Cal geographers who, six years ago, came up with a possible location for OBL that was amazingly accurate just by thinking and using tools outside of the intelligence box.

Third, the problem with torute is and remains what it does to us as a country and as people. You think you can limit it to ticking time bomb situations (though this is not what this is) but how? If it works for a bomber, why not a child rapist? Or why not any criminal involved in any illegality? Also, torture completely undermines our notions of civil justice...you can't credit evidence obtained under torture...if you could, than every one sentenced to the gulaug by Stalin was guilty.
 
Waterboarding a bad guy to save the lives of innocent people is fine with me. There is no permanent injury.
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There is often no permanent physical injury from sexual abuse, either:boggled:.


Third, the problem with torute is and remains what it does to us as a country and as people. You think you can limit it to ticking time bomb situations (though this is not what this is) but how? If it works for a bomber, why not a child rapist? Or why not any criminal involved in any illegality? Also, torture completely undermines our notions of civil justice...you can't credit evidence obtained under torture...if you could, than every one sentenced to the gulaug by Stalin was guilty.
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I have yet to receive a good answer to this. Given that organized crime is a far greater threat to American citizens than terrorism, why don't we torture, say, mafia bosses?
 
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Rape leaves no permanent scars either (well, it could, I suppose but often doesn't).

Here's the other thing...and John Yoo was completely comfortable saying the president had the power to do this...if it is about saving lives and ticking time bombs, why not rape or kill a suspected terrorist's wife or children in front of him if it leverages out the info you want? Why limit torture to an individual who might be personally able to withsdand it, but would crumble if Mom or his sister or his wife or daughter was tortured in front of him? After all, if it save lives...

In addition, to all of this, how do we as a society re-integrate tortures into our community? A man in the military who has tortured to leverage information, do you want that person to be part of civil law enforcement, as ex-military often are? Do you want them teaching your children in schools? Do you want the doctor who helped over see a terror regime giving your wife a pap smear once he has retired from the military?
 
If a person is in Gitmo, they are probably experiencing the same negative effects/torture they acted upon others, either directly or indirectly through orders. The difference is the people in Gitmo are not innocent, the people they've harmed probably were innocent or manipulated. One has a choice and control over their behavior, unless they are poisoned by toxins. (Which should be considered with the metals in surrounding mountain ranges/lack of water purification..) The victim does not reasonably have a say in survival situations. The human condition for surviving gets taken up a few notches above rationale when being tortured unless they have completely removed all logic and humanity from their existence...the exact conditions necessary to survive as a terrorist. I can't imagine the amount of torture a person could withstand to protect their ideologies, especially if they are not accepted by the entire world. At some point they would normally feel like a victim, right?The amount of conviction to even kill another ideology is irrational. There are easier ways to advance a cause than killing.

I'm not for torture, but I don't comprehend terroristic logic.
 
"people in Gitmo are not innocent" and you know this how? Was it through their trial? My point isn't that there aren't very bad people who have been shipped to Gitmo, there are indeed some very bad and very likely quite guilty people. But, now, we apparently do away with our laws and constitituion based on suspision -- or do it under the cover of "secrecy". It is a slippery slope and we are sliding fast.

Yes it is possibly the stupidest post of the day. That's why I wrote it. The notion that torture (in this case waterboarding) is somehow ok overall because the victim is a) a bad guy (leaving out how that is determined) and b). it leaves no permanent physical damage is mind blowing to me.

We don't lesson the charge of Rape or its penalty for a criminal who doesn't permanently, phyiscally harm the victim. I am NOT trying to make an analogy between rape and waterboarding or between a terrorist syspect and a rape victim. What I am trying to suggest, if ham-handedly, that the notion that its ok so long as it doesn't physically scar is wrong.



Someone who has been raped may well recover physically from the event...but we all are aware of the devestation of the act on the psyche.
 
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