Operation Sealion

[Matthew Ellard]

I know, i've said it. It's a common cliche among writers, yet why do people deride Sealion?

Everyone else has made good points about why the Germans could not get there. I agree with all those points. I am also unsure what advantage "taking England" would be.

England imports oil so the Germans would have to at least be able to supply enough oil to maintain an armoured force in the UK and frankly they wouldn't have enough to also invade to the east.

The manpower requirement to police the UK would have been enormous and again. I doubt Germany had the resources to do this and also fight in the east.

I have no idea what the citizens of the UK would be like in a insurgency war against German invaders but I imagine the Brits would be nasty people to try control.

 

[nota]

if and only if the germans had the help of both japan and italy
their so called axis partners they may have a chance
that depends on the italian navy getting out of the med in one piece
and japan's navy steaming nearly around the world

afaik they never ever thought of doing that

but with england out of the war
both japan and italy war would have been eazyer

btw there was no way germany and ally's could beat russia
that was simply too many against too few to work

 

[nota]

Everyone else has made good points about why the Germans could not get there. I agree with all those points. I am also unsure what advantage "taking England" would be.

England imports oil so the Germans would have to at least be able to supply enough oil to maintain an armoured force in the UK and frankly they wouldn't have enough to also invade to the east.

The manpower requirement to police the UK would have been enormous and again. I doubt Germany had the resources to do this and also fight in the east.

I have no idea what the citizens of the UK would be like in a insurgency war against German invaders but I imagine the Brits would be nasty people to try control.

not being able to fight in the east
that would be the best the germans would get
if they fight with russia they lose

 

[Marduk]

I know, i've said it. It's a common cliche among writers, yet why do people deride Sealion?

because Hitler thought he could take on the British and win. Thats at best wishful thinking and at worse military suicide. We are after all the Übermensch he kept going on about all the time. This is why we won both world wars practically on our own with hardly any assistance from anyone else

 

[nota]

because Hitler thought he could take on the British and win. Thats at best wishful thinking and at worse military suicide. We are after all the Übermensch he kept going on about all the time. This is why we won both world wars practically on our own with hardly any assistance from anyone else

while hitler was a nut who did think some people were the Übermensch
he did NOT feel that way about the english

as the english were anglo-saxion and therefor german
so the english were placed in the arian race

one of the reasons the germans never invaided england
was hitler like the english and wanted the engish as allies
against the reds
[hitler wanted many things that just were not going to happen]

 

[Trojan]

Everyone else has made good points about why the Germans could not get there. I agree with all those points. I am also unsure what advantage "taking England" would be.

England imports oil so the Germans would have to at least be able to supply enough oil to maintain an armoured force in the UK and frankly they wouldn't have enough to also invade to the east.

The manpower requirement to police the UK would have been enormous and again. I doubt Germany had the resources to do this and also fight in the east.

I have no idea what the citizens of the UK would be like in a insurgency war against German invaders but I imagine the Brits would be nasty people to try control.

With England gone (say by fall 1940), any intervention by the US is virtually impossible.

(they would not need to keep England garrisoned with Panzer forces, they did not garrison France with any significant Panzer forces until the threat of invasion grew)

The rest of Europe and the Med would go to the Axis, as would the Mid East with all the oil they needed, Spain would join the Axis, all Germany would just have to do is keep Russia placated until 1942. By that time, Hitler would have all the resources he needed to attack Russia and win.

 

[Marduk]

while hitler was a nut who did think some people were the Übermensch
he did NOT feel that way about the english

as the english were anglo-saxion and therefor german
so the english were placed in the arian race

one of the reasons the germans never invaided england
was hitler like the english and wanted the engish as allies
against the reds
[hitler wanted many things that just were not going to happen]

Humour, like correct spelling, is for some people a way of life, for others lifes deepest mystery

 

[Matthew Ellard]

With England gone (say by fall 1940), any intervention by the US is virtually impossible.

That makes sense.

(they would not need to keep England garrisoned with Panzer forces, they did not garrison France with any significant Panzer forces until the threat of invasion grew)

Agreed, but in the east they had entire divisions out fighting partisans behind the front lines and to get around the petrol shortages that mostly used captured military trains using coal. That's why I said "I don't know how the Brits would behave" however I imagine every Brit would behave like some uber-version of the IRA and kill germans left right and centre. I'm just guessing now.

The rest of Europe and the Med would go to the Axis, as would the Mid East with all the oil they needed, Spain would join the Axis, all Germany would just have to do is keep Russia placated until 1942. By that time, Hitler would have all the resources he needed to attack Russia and win.

I agree with everything except the 1942 date. The Russian were always going to beat the Germans. Albert Speer is quite clear that Germany didn't start it's war economy until 1943 and it never got into full stride before it ran out of manpower (including slave labour). Even if Moscow and Leningrad fell the Russian had production plans that outweighed Germany.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

while hitler was a nut who did think some people were the Übermensch
he did NOT feel that way about the english

as the english were anglo-saxion and therefor german
so the english were placed in the arian race

one of the reasons the germans never invaided england
was hitler like the english and wanted the engish as allies
against the reds
[hitler wanted many things that just were not going to happen]

I just don't know about this. I feel that Unity Mitford's relationship with Hitler was very strange and I wonder if Hitler confused his views on England with his relationship with Mitford. She did shoot herself with the pistol that he gave her in the main Nazi meeting cafe. Hitler did return her to England just before the war. Many of Hitler's other views were based on his subjective opinion. I just think Unity Mitford may have a small part to play in Hitler's views about England. ( I'm not trying to make this bigger than it really is)

 

[nota]

Humour, like correct spelling, is for some people a way of life, for others lifes deepest mystery

one of the most useless forms of life is an english major

 

[Marduk]

one of the most useless forms of life is an english major

Oh I agree, I always got on better with the N.C.O's myself

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Operation Sealion / Germany's worst secret weapon

Germany made some lovely weapons but it also made some rather awful machines. One of these was the "LandWasserSchlepper" for operation Sealion.

Is it a tank? Well not really.... Is it a boat?.....well not really... Here is a nice photo. You work it out. It is one of my favourite German vehicles. I can say without fear the Americans made far better amphibious machines during the war.

http://www.panzer-reich.co.uk/image...landwasserschlepper/landwasserschlepper-1.jpg

 

[Trojan]

I agree with everything except the 1942 date. The Russian were always going to beat the Germans. Albert Speer is quite clear that Germany didn't start it's war economy until 1943 and it never got into full stride before it ran out of manpower (including slave labour). Even if Moscow and Leningrad fell the Russian had production plans that outweighed Germany.

My 1942 reference is the hypothetical alternate start date for a war with Russia, which would be inevitable. Stalin would most likely get paranoid and attack on his own, or Germany would have what it could take from elsewhere and Hitler would then turn to his ultimate goal.

Or course if Germany can avoid war in the East, it basically is now the winner. With all of Europe under its control, Mid East Oil and North Africa, its just administrative at this point -- how good is the long term Nazi economic plan (most likely self defeating, but that's another topic).

I think that if Germany is otherwise at peace, can divert its attention and all of its first line military might (minus what ever occupation troops are needed), it has one hell of a force to go against Russia.

Assume the extra year of peace is a push - Germany gets stronger, but on a par with Russia getting stronger. Germany had about 1,500 combat aircraft deployed in the West in June 1941, those would now join the invasion force.

Add the Afrika Korp, Spanish troops, more Italians, (yeah I know, but it helps), etc. etc.

Russia is in serious trouble, add virtually no lend lease. Its going to be a hell of a war

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

How Sealion would have a better chance. (what-iffy)

In the 1920s, Lt. Kurt Jurgens, formerly of the Kaiser's equivalent of the Kreigsmarine, is vacationing in the Caribbean and falls in with a group of US officers taking a break from the experimental landings the USN and Marines are trying out on certain islands. He develops a friendship with one of the officers, who keeps him informed of the results and "lessons learned" of future fleet problems. Jurgens becomes a Nazi and is rapidly advanced in the KM. He champions the development of landing craft by promoting the idea of amphibious vehicles for river crossings while secretly making them seaworthy to a considerable extent. Many of Germany's armored and semi-armored vehicles are then produced with a wading capability and alternative water propulsion. The concept of larger craft to move the units up and down rivers to confuse the enemy as to the real point of crossing is accepted and "landing ships" with cross channel capability are built. Etc.

This, of course, only addresses one problem the Heer had in making the crossing.

 

[nota]

I just don't know about this. I feel that Unity Mitford's relationship with Hitler was very strange and I wonder if Hitler confused his views on England with his relationship with Mitford. She did shoot herself with the pistol that he gave her in the main Nazi meeting cafe. Hitler did return her to England just before the war. Many of Hitler's other views were based on his subjective opinion. I just think Unity Mitford may have a small part to play in Hitler's views about England. ( I'm not trying to make this bigger than it really is)

hitler's views on england's relationship with germany is far older and deeper
then Unity's Mitford brief fling in germany
hitler's book written in the mid 20's details his plans both for peace with england and war with the russians

hitler admired the english and their empire
he wanted the english as arian brothers on his side
with him ruling europe and the english their empire

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

http://www.milspecmanuals.com/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=10410&keyword=german+naval+minutes&searchby=keyword&offset=0&fs=1&CLSN_2977=1261011542297702391818935a816025

 

[Marduk]

hitler's views on england's relationship with germany is far older and deeper
then Unity's Mitford brief fling in germany
hitler's book written in the mid 20's details his plans both for peace with england and war with the russians

hitler admired the english and their empire
he wanted the english as arian brothers on his side
with him ruling europe and the english their empire

right on,

"After the war is over and Hitler will crush the Americans ... we'll take over ... They [the Commonwealth] don't want me as their king, but I'll soon be back as their leader."

This statement was made by Edward VIII uring the war, after his abdication, make no mistake, if he hadn't met Wallis Simpson, Germany and England would have been allies. English media right up til around 1938 was still describing the Fuhrer as "That nice Mr Hitler"
who knew ?

 

[Dunstan]

This statement was made by Edward VIII uring the war, after his abdication, make no mistake, if he hadn't met Wallis Simpson, Germany and England would have been allies. English media right up til around 1938 was still describing the Fuhrer as "That nice Mr Hitler"
who knew ?

There's at least two massive assumptions in there: (1) that Edward's attitude towards Germany and fascism would have been the same if the Abdication had never happened; and (2) that Edward's attitude would have been decisive in the government's decision.

I don't know enough about the man to say whether (1) is a safe assumption, but (2) seems rather unlikely. If Parliament had the political/constitutional muscle to tell the monarch who he could and couldn't marry, it certainly would not have felt bound by the monarch's foreign policy preferences.

 

[rjh01]

Two things here.
1. In 1937 the PM on his own authority practiced "appeasement" on Hitler. So he had at least some support from the government. Against that it was the same PM who declared war on Hitler or was it the King? If the later then Marduk is probably right.

2. Hitler wanted to invade Russia not France. Hence he went into Poland and Czechoslovakia rather than France first.

 

[Marduk]

There's at least two massive assumptions in there: (1) that Edward's attitude towards Germany and fascism would have been the same if the Abdication had never happened;

Thats fair comment and obviously we'll never know, but the fact that when he became the Duke of Windsor he met Adolf Hitler at his Obersalzberg retreat and gave full Nazi salutes is rather telling. This was why he was moved from his posting in France and installed as Governor of the Bahamas for the reaminder of the war, so that he couldn't damage moral. Its well known that he was an ardent anti communist and pro fascist with a dash of good old racist superiority thrown in. Perhaps you are forgetting that the surname of this family isn't really Windsor, its Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha

(2) that Edward's attitude would have been decisive in the government's decision.

The Government would have followed the King, Neville Chamberlain was a very weak prime minister. They could have easily ignored that previous pact with Poland

I don't know enough about the man to say whether (1) is a safe assumption, but (2) seems rather unlikely. If Parliament had the political/constitutional muscle to tell the monarch who he could and couldn't marry, it certainly would not have felt bound by the monarch's foreign policy preferences.

There is a big difference there and its about blood not politics. The bloodline of the rulers of Royal Family is not allowed to be sullied. Politics as you know is changeable.

We aren't taught this today, for instance that the Duke of Windsor was an ardent Nazi and gave those salutes is very well known, but despite it being heavily publicised by the German media you go try and find a picture of him doing it