• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

open letter to james randi

Gentlefolk on the JREF forum, I think that our yellowbamboo friend is not all he seems to be. I'm detecting some incongruous notes in his posts here. But anyway...
yellowbamboo said:
Okay I am trying to reply to this thing if it is wrong i apologize.

Please don't apologise for being truthful! It is how we progress here.

1. Before you read my answers pls go to rma forum newsgroup and read joko tri account and fraser johnson account which i think should answer msot of the questions and give proof of the contract etc.

I have. They provide no evidence at all. For all we know, they could have been making up a story like in a book. That is not good enough to convince us, and it is definitely not good enough to win $1,000,000.

Yellowbamboo, some questions, please:

1) Is the 12-second video referenced by this website that was sent to Randi the ONLY piece of video or photographic evidence available of the "trial" by Joko Tri?

yes i think so

You sound like you are not sure about this. Such evidence would be extremely important in supporting the Yellow Yamboo claim. Why so little photographic evidence?

Did the reporter, whatever his name is, take any photographs, either video or still? If so, can we please see these as well?

no- his name is suastawa (sp?) and he is a journalist for radio republik indonesia in singaraja- look up his phone number for the company and call him there if ya want.

I do not want to call a reporter, and I should not need to. I'm expecting good evidence directly from the people who are making this claim. That is Yellow Bamboo.

2) You say you have a "contract" between Randi and Joko Tri for Tri to be a JREF representative. Can you please post here a photocopy of this "contract", including any signatures? This should prove what you say about this contract.

see what fraser johnson who saw and photoed the contract says- i dont have a scanner and it is like 2 hours from here to one.

I think reprise above has answered this.

Also pls remember this_ I make NO money from this thing and am only a volunteer and if we did ever win and randi did actually pay i would get none of it.

So what? That doesn't make any difference to the evidence.

I am in bali to surf and put up the website ONLY as a favor to pak serengen. But I am in bali to surf and i dont really give a toss if people belive in it or not- I persoanlly like the meditations myself.

If there was no surf here I would never sty in this hell hole.

Aaah! Now we are possibly getting to the core of the matter. This whole claim is really just a favour for a friend! Do you think that your "friend" might be using you as a stooge, perhaps?

3) Why was the trial done at night? Did Joko Tri do any other trials in daylight as well?

joko waqs late and the reporter was even later so we had to do it
in the dark.

Why not first thing the next day, in daylight? And it sounds like you know Joko's personal habits...yes?

4) Did Joko Tri do only one trial? If not, how many others did he do? Daylight or night-time? Were they filmed too by anyone in any way?

one time go

So no repeat performance, no other video or photographs that can be shown to us, not in daylight, no repeat performances to confirm the effect. Is this what you are saying?

5) In the movie we have, who are the other people who are attacking the master alongside Joko Tri?

Dont know. I dont speak enough indonesian to understand what they were saying. Maybe it wasd to get serengen psyched?

You don't speak Indonesian? Where are YOU from, then? What languages DO you speak?

The title of your press release was "Million Dollar Challenge Won by Yellow Bamboo".

I don't see how that can be interpreted as anything but a deliberately false statement.

Maybe your right it could have said Step one of Million dollar challenge won

It should have told the truth.

1. how can the same force being delivered from the same person at the same time at the same place, knock down one attacker forwards, and the other attacker backwards?

Stuffed if I know

Hello, it's an Ocker!

I am also definitely not saying anyone in any party has done anything other than be honest. I simply would like some things cleared up, questions that mostly arise from a very dark and short video.

i agree it sucks it was not done early morning.

There's 12 hours of daylight to work with, actually.

Yellowbamboo, your silence in response to these very valid questions above would indicate that you do not have any good answers at all. That could mean you have been trying to scam JREF and your followers.

Mayte what am i supposed to do stay in the internet cafe to answer people questions?

You admit above that you posted this claim of success by Yellow Bamboo. Unless you were startling naive, you should have expected a barrage of questions as a result. If you don't want to answer them because you are surfing, fine. But don't be surprised if your claims get trashed in your absence.

At this time, we have no evidence that you have even officially signed up to do the preliminary JREF challenge for the $1,000,000. We know for certain you have not won the main JREF $1,000,000 prize, so telling your followers on your website that you have is a straight out lie.

what are you smokin? We have so far made NO announcement on our website.

Did you write this? http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/9/prweb80745.htm

All we have is one very short, very poor quality video plus your own announcement on your own website, repeated here, that you have "passed the test". This is totally insufficient, it shows nothing positive at all, and it raises far more questions than answers.

WRONG theres nothin on the website is there?

Don't fool with us, please. You are not very good at it. The above link makes the claim quite clearly. Randi was sent a video of the event you are making the claim about that has been published on the web also. You admit above that this video is the one and only video of the actual event. The question stands: What other hard evidence do YOU, Yellow Bamboo, have to support your claim?

So would it be too much to ask that you respond to our questions and requests within 24 hours? We are very reasonable and are quite willing to hear and see your evidence, but if you do not show it to us then there is nothing to support your claims that you passed JREF's (not Randi's) preliminary challenge for the $1,000,000.

Please we could caree less if you believe or not and it IS randi who pays the prize not you is it?

Yellow Bamboo cared enough to make a very public claim that it had won the $1,000,000 JREF prize for verified demonstration of a supernatural claim. We are EXTREMELY interested in that claim and would like to know more about it. You seem to be avoiding the issue entirely now - are you afraid of your claim now?

I do not want to find out that you are liars and confidence tricksters. And I would not like to tell all your followers that you are confidence tricksters who rip off tourists.

Mate your totally barkin up the wrong tree.

Umm, no, mate. A few days ago the Indonesian government passed laws banning "sorcery" among other things, with heavy gaol sentences involved. What you are claiming can easily be construed as "sorcery" by their definition. And you do know that the Indonesian government is not slow in bringing criminals to severe justice. So I suggest you should be a lot more circumspect in pushing this particular barrow.

A) As you can see from Frasers post we make NO money off this thing. People pay 15 busk to join and get a uniform in return.

So the whole "self defence" thing is NOT part of the deal?

B) Out of 30,000 members there are maybe 20 westerners all up who are members

So?


C) So we dont have any outcome or financial gain at all anywhere from this at all- read fraser johnsons post mate.

I've said I'm not interested in second-hand stuff. You are the one making the claim, so you can answer the questions if you like.

And I would not like to let the correct Balinese and Indonesian authorities know that you are confidence tricksters who rip off tourists. That would be very bad for you, not for JREF.

THis is the funniest thing i have heard all month :-)

I'm sure! The opinion here is that your Yellow Bamboo claim for the JREF $1,000,000 is funnier, though. But I did mention the new Indonesian laws, didn't I???

actually there is nothing in the contract or protocol which mandates any video evidence- look at jref contract on his site randi.org

It actually says, "...under satisfactory observing conditions." You have already admitted this wasn't the case.

Sure I hope you got what you want- im sitting in a hot and sweaty box at the moment and have stayed as long as i can stand it- wanna know more email us.

Stay. Go. Surf. Whatever. Will there be any more evidence at any time?
Click to expand...
 
yellowbamboo said:
What a crock of rocking horse crap.

You are in roughly the same timezone as I am and please stop pretending that Indonesia is some pathetic Third World backwater which does not have reliable internet access. The very fact that Yellow Bamboo maintains a website suggests otherwise.

Actually if you check your see the website is maintained in usa.




As does the fact that YB seemed to have no problems whatsoever in posting their claim to have won the "JREF $1 million dollar challenge". As does the fact that people in


yes we did go to the cafe to post it took a while to get it together.


Indonesia post on this and other messageboards all over the world wide net every single day of the week. People understand time zone differences. I post mostly during the daytime AEST. During our day time people get fairly prompt answers. If they ask me a question in the middle of the night AEST, they understand when they do not get a response within 15 minutes. They even understand that sometimes real life events might mean that I don't even see their question for a week.

You know what the difference is? If you can get internet access or deal with the timezone problems in order to claim the glory then you can do the same in order to address legitimate questions.


Do you have a pint ehre?



YOU don't have a scanner. YB has access to sufficiently sophisticated technology that they can put a video online. In the absence of a scanner (I don't have one either), I'd be prepared to at least take a look at images of the "notarised documentation" which have been taken with either a digital camera or a standard video camera.

In the absence of you having access to either of those technologies, I'd even settle for you specifically naming the signatories to the JREF agreement and the notary.

I have many friends who live in Indonesia if computer equipment and access is a problem. Within 24 hours I am quite sure that no matter where you live in Indonesia I can arrange for someone who DOES have the necessary equipment to assist you in putting these images online.

Are you really SURE that you want to claim "technical difficulties" here?



Sure if you want a friend to come here and scan it they are welcome.

It would be even easier to have randi post it as well :-)

But the bottom line is believe or dont believe it is up to you.

what really matters now is if serengen can knock randi on his bum.

If he can your points are moot. If he cannot it is all bullsh** anyway:-)
Click to expand...

Yada Yada Yada

The signatories to this alleged agreement are?

You don't need a scanner to name the names who signed this agreement on behalf of the JREF and to publicly name the notary who witnessed that agreement. Anyone who signed that agreement on behalf of the JREF would have had to declare in what legal capacity they were acting on behalf of the JREF.

Just list right now the signatures on that agreement and in what capacity they signed the agreement and we might start entertaining the idea that some valid but "Randi has totally lost his marbles" agreement actually exists. Randi is NOT the JREF. There is not reason whatsoever why you should be reluctant to disclose to the JREF membership the details of the agreement which YB allegedly entered into with Randi on behalf of the JREF. In fact, the JREF is a legally constituted entity which can compel disclosure of such agreements, Randi's opinions or preferences notwithstanding - an INDIVIDUAL cannot acquire the legal status of the JREF.

I'm sure that you won't mind posting right here the details of the account in which the $1 million Challenge funds are held. It should be in the paperwork which YB holds. It certainly isn't "private" information which the JREF refuses to reveal, neither are the terms under which the custodians of the funds are required to release them.

You don't have copies of the agreements. You're posting ont he JREF messageboard FFS. If you had any kind of legal status Linda could produce the relevant records upon request as she has done many, MANY times before.

I'm so pissed off with the new laws Indonesia is contemplating right now that I should probably leave this thread alone altogether.
 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by yellowbamboo
What a crock of rocking horse crap.

You are in roughly the same timezone as I am and please stop pretending that Indonesia is some pathetic Third World backwater which does not have reliable internet access. The very fact that Yellow Bamboo maintains a website suggests otherwise.

Actually if you check your see the website is maintained in usa.




As does the fact that YB seemed to have no problems whatsoever in posting their claim to have won the "JREF $1 million dollar challenge". As does the fact that people in


yes we did go to the cafe to post it took a while to get it together.


Indonesia post on this and other messageboards all over the world wide net every single day of the week. People understand time zone differences. I post mostly during the daytime AEST. During our day time people get fairly prompt answers. If they ask me a question in the middle of the night AEST, they understand when they do not get a response within 15 minutes. They even understand that sometimes real life events might mean that I don't even see their question for a week.

You know what the difference is? If you can get internet access or deal with the timezone problems in order to claim the glory then you can do the same in order to address legitimate questions.


Do you have a pint ehre?



YOU don't have a scanner. YB has access to sufficiently sophisticated technology that they can put a video online. In the absence of a scanner (I don't have one either), I'd be prepared to at least take a look at images of the "notarised documentation" which have been taken with either a digital camera or a standard video camera.

In the absence of you having access to either of those technologies, I'd even settle for you specifically naming the signatories to the JREF agreement and the notary.

I have many friends who live in Indonesia if computer equipment and access is a problem. Within 24 hours I am quite sure that no matter where you live in Indonesia I can arrange for someone who DOES have the necessary equipment to assist you in putting these images online.

Are you really SURE that you want to claim "technical difficulties" here?



Sure if you want a friend to come here and scan it they are welcome.

It would be even easier to have randi post it as well :-)

But the bottom line is believe or dont believe it is up to you.

what really matters now is if serengen can knock randi on his bum.

If he can your points are moot. If he cannot it is all bullsh** anyway:-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yada Yada Yada

The signatories to this alleged agreement are?

James Randi for JREF and notarized by a florida notary with a seal.

Dr Alvin Donovan for YB

If you like I can try to phot it with a digital camera.



You don't need a scanner to name the names who signed this agreement on behalf of the JREF and to publicly name the notary who witnessed that agreement. Anyone who signed that agreement on behalf of the JREF would have had to declare in what legal capacity they were acting on behalf of the JREF.


i dont dispute that would you like me to try to phot it?

Just list right now the signatures on that agreement and in what capacity they signed the agreement and we might start entertaining the idea that some valid but "Randi has totally lost his marbles" agreement actually exists. Randi is NOT the JREF. There is not reason whatsoever why you should be reluctant to disclose to the JREF membership the details of the agreement which YB allegedly entered into with Randi on behalf of the JREF. In fact, the JREF is a legally constituted entity which can compel disclosure of such agreements, Randi's opinions or preferences notwithstanding - an INDIVIDUAL cannot acquire the legal status of the JREF.


Okay bvut is not the real point whether yb can knck people on their ass or not?


I'm sure that you won't mind posting right here the details of the account in which the $1 million Challenge funds are held. It should be in the paperwork which YB holds. It certainly isn't "private" information which the JREF refuses to reveal, neither are the terms under which the custodians of the funds are required to release them.


Actually nowhere in the contract- which is easily read on randi.org
does it state where the money is being held.


You don't have copies of the agreements. You're posting ont he JREF messageboard FFS. If you had any kind of legal status Linda could produce the relevant records upon request as she has done many, MANY times before.


I am not following you, are you claiming telepathy now?




I'm so pissed off with the new laws Indonesia is contemplating right now that I should probably leave this thread alone altogether.



What new laws? Idid see that one of the bali bombers got only 4 years in jail- also that all of them are being moved to central java- where they will be surrounded by their muslim fanatic mates who will surely help them escape- now THAT sucks!
 
I have. They provide no evidence at all. For all we know, they could have been making up a story like in a book. That is not good enough to convince us, and it is definitely not good enough to win $1,000,000.


NO the *only* thing that would do it is Randi claimant test, right?



Yellowbamboo, some questions, please:

1) Is the 12-second video referenced by this website that was sent to Randi the ONLY piece of video or photographic evidence available of the "trial" by Joko Tri?

yes i think so

You sound like you are not sure about this. Such evidence would be extremely important in supporting the Yellow Yamboo claim. Why so little photographic evidence?


Well there was only one camera- and we had no knowledge going there it would not happen till dark.




Did the reporter, whatever his name is, take any photographs, either video or still? If so, can we please see these as well?



No


no- his name is suastawa (sp?) and he is a journalist for radio republik indonesia in singaraja- look up his phone number for the company and call him there if ya want.

I do not want to call a reporter, and I should not need to. I'm expecting good evidence directly from the people who are making this claim. That is Yellow Bamboo.


Actually the one who really should be talking to the reporter is randi but I am sure he has already done so and the story verified, otherwise randi would have disclosed this ont he site, no?



2) You say you have a "contract" between Randi and Joko Tri for Tri to be a JREF representative. Can you please post here a photocopy of this "contract", including any signatures? This should prove what you say about this contract.

see what fraser johnson who saw and photoed the contract says- i dont have a scanner and it is like 2 hours from here to one.

I think reprise above has answered this.

Also pls remember this_ I make NO money from this thing and am only a volunteer and if we did ever win and randi did actually pay i would get none of it.

So what? That doesn't make any difference to the evidence.

I am in bali to surf and put up the website ONLY as a favor to pak serengen. But I am in bali to surf and i dont really give a toss if people belive in it or not- I persoanlly like the meditations myself.

If there was no surf here I would never sty in this hell hole.

Aaah! Now we are possibly getting to the core of the matter. This whole claim is really just a favour for a friend! Do you think that your "friend" might be using you as a stooge, perhaps?



FOr what gain? There is no money in the yb thing.



3) Why was the trial done at night? Did Joko Tri do any other trials in daylight as well?

joko waqs late and the reporter was even later so we had to do it
in the dark.

Why not first thing the next day, in daylight?


The idea never came up actually but I would say it was awfully hard to get everyone there at the same time in the first place.

I live 3 hours away, joko is from java, the reporter was late the first time.

But truth be told- when randi does it I will suggest early morning!


And it sounds like you know Joko's personal habits...yes?

no


4) Did Joko Tri do only one trial? If not, how many others did he do? Daylight or night-time? Were they filmed too by anyone in any way?

one time go

So no repeat performance, no other video or photographs that can be shown to us, not in daylight, no repeat performances to confirm the effect. Is this what you are saying?

Yes- but the randi contract does not ask nor stipulate this- we should be trying to fulfill randis conditions, not your after the fact conditions, no?


5) In the movie we have, who are the other people who are attacking the master alongside Joko Tri?

Dont know. I dont speak enough indonesian to understand what they were saying. Maybe it wasd to get serengen psyched?

You don't speak Indonesian? Where are YOU from, then? What languages DO you speak?


Australian, English, Spanish, Dutch, German and some basic balinese



The title of your press release was "Million Dollar Challenge Won by Yellow Bamboo".

I don't see how that can be interpreted as anything but a deliberately false statement.

Maybe your right it could have said Step one of Million dollar challenge won

It should have told the truth.

Well please be fair now! The body text of the press release WAS pretty accurate and it did state we next become claimants etc.


1. how can the same force being delivered from the same person at the same time at the same place, knock down one attacker forwards, and the other attacker backwards?

Stuffed if I know

Hello, it's an Ocker!

I am also definitely not saying anyone in any party has done anything other than be honest. I simply would like some things cleared up, questions that mostly arise from a very dark and short video.

i agree it sucks it was not done early morning.

There's 12 hours of daylight to work with, actually.


Yes but we agreed to do it late afternoon cause of the heat of the beach and it was joko and the reporter late, not us.



Yellowbamboo, your silence in response to these very valid questions above would indicate that you do not have any good answers at all. That could mean you have been trying to scam JREF and your followers.


Hang on- maybe I am missing something, what scam?

There is no money in it for us! How could we be scamming? What benefit would it be to us? HOW please tell me so maybe I could make some dough out of it?

I am sure Randi will give a very thorough test- bullet proof- and if we win then the money goes towards giving free seminars worldwide.


Mayte what am i supposed to do stay in the internet cafe to answer people questions?

You admit above that you posted this claim of success by Yellow Bamboo. Unless you were startling naive, you should have expected a barrage of questions as a result. If you don't want to answer them because you are surfing, fine. But don't be surprised if your claims get trashed in your absence.


Yes but my normal habit is to go to internet once a day 1 hours away so please give me soem time to read and reply, fair enough no?

At this time, we have no evidence that you have even officially signed up to do the preliminary JREF challenge for the $1,000,000. We know for certain you have not won the main JREF $1,000,000 prize, so telling your followers on your website that you have is a straight out lie.

what are you smokin? We have so far made NO announcement on our website.

Did you write this? http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/9/prweb80745.htm

All we have is one very short, very poor quality video plus your own announcement on your own website, repeated here, that you have "passed the test". This is totally insufficient, it shows nothing positive at all, and it raises far more questions than answers.

WRONG theres nothin on the website is there?

Don't fool with us, please. You are not very good at it. The above link makes the claim quite clearly. Randi was sent a video of the event you are making the claim about that has been published on the web also. You admit above that this video is the one and only video of the actual event. The question stands: What other hard evidence do YOU, Yellow Bamboo, have to support your claim?


How about randis representative own posting?
Maybe if randi asks for it we could also get the reporter to sign a notarized declaration.

But i must say randis coinditions at this point are more importaznt than yours.


So would it be too much to ask that you respond to our questions and requests within 24 hours? We are very reasonable and are quite willing to hear and see your evidence, but if you do not show it to us then there is nothing to support your claims that you passed JREF's (not Randi's) preliminary challenge for the $1,000,000.

Please we could caree less if you believe or not and it IS randi who pays the prize not you is it?

Yellow Bamboo cared enough to make a very public claim that it had won the $1,000,000 JREF prize for verified demonstration of a supernatural claim. We are EXTREMELY interested in that claim and would like to know more about it. You seem to be avoiding the issue entirely now - are you afraid of your claim now?

I do not want to find out that you are liars and confidence tricksters. And I would not like to tell all your followers that you are confidence tricksters who rip off tourists.

Mate your totally barkin up the wrong tree.

Umm, no, mate. A few days ago the Indonesian government passed laws banning "sorcery" among other things, with heavy gaol sentences involved. What you are claiming can easily be construed as "sorcery" by their definition. And you do know that the Indonesian government is not slow in bringing criminals to severe justice. So I suggest you should be a lot more circumspect in pushing this particular barrow.


Mate you never been here I can tell from these comments above.

A) Bali bomber gets 4 years sentence!
B) Yellow bamboo is a bonafide organisation constructed under indo laws
C) Serengen is a government official.
D) Almost every balinese here believes in white magic, black magic etc and the ones who dont believe will surely not tell you.


A) As you can see from Frasers post we make NO money off this thing. People pay 15 busk to join and get a uniform in return.

So the whole "self defence" thing is NOT part of the deal?

B) Out of 30,000 members there are maybe 20 westerners all up who are members

So?

YOu claimes we are ripping off tourists my point is we have almost NO tourists in the thing

C) So we dont have any outcome or financial gain at all anywhere from this at all- read fraser johnsons post mate.

I've said I'm not interested in second-hand stuff. You are the one making the claim, so you can answer the questions if you like.

And I would not like to let the correct Balinese and Indonesian authorities know that you are confidence tricksters who rip off tourists. That would be very bad for you, not for JREF.

THis is the funniest thing i have heard all month :-)

I'm sure! The opinion here is that your Yellow Bamboo claim for the JREF $1,000,000 is funnier, though. But I did mention the new Indonesian laws, didn't I???

actually there is nothing in the contract or protocol which mandates any video evidence- look at jref contract on his site randi.org

It actually says, "...under satisfactory observing conditions." You have already admitted this wasn't the case.

Sure I hope you got what you want- im sitting in a hot and sweaty box at the moment and have stayed as long as i can stand it- wanna know more email us.

Stay. Go. Surf. Whatever. Will there be any more evidence at any time?

Sure if you want and ask nice, with a smile I would photo the contract for ya and try to post it here- can yoiu pls tellk me how to post an attachment?

YBS



here is further letters from me to randi

Mr Randi- I have thought about your last two letters
and here is my ideas/opinions. Let me say I will always
tell you the whole truth as I know it and would always
be ready and willing to undergo any lie detection
device you may want to employ.

My only outcome it to prove if YB
really works or not. I believe you and I share
somewhat the same outcome.


1. I dont know if Yellow Bamboo power works
or is an advanced form or hypnosis or persuasion
or the pressure to conform.

I had hoped the randi challenge would answer this
one way or the other.

I do not believe that Mr Serengen is deliberately
using any technology device to defraud or scam people.

There are several reasons:

1. I know these guys pretty well for over a year now
and there is no way they could use any technology
in the first place. They can barely operate
a western flush toilet. They are just too primitive.
They dont even know how to use the internet
or even understand how it works. These guys
are just too simple for this.


2. What would be the benefit of them scamming?
I mean to say this- NONE of the Yellow Bamboo
people make any money off of it- they are all volunteers.
There is no money to be made from it. The classes are
free. When you join you pay only $15 bucks and you get
a uniform and kit to go with it. By my rough estimation
the stuff you get costs about $15. So I dont see how anyone
could make any money off it.

At the very best- these guys are true and sincere and the stuff
works. At the very worst they are delusional and have a very
strong system for brainwashing others to become good
people. They whole thing is about doing good behavior.

Now if it is just brainwashing, I would readily admit
it is NOT supernatural but would still make quite
an interesting study albeit outside of the jref bailiwick.


3. I really dont believe that Yellow Bamboo attackers fall down
on purpose. There is nothing in it for them to. Also I would like
to share my experience.

A) When I first did a defending test I was fully focused
and all of the attackers fell down. The second time however I was
a little distracted and one (out of 4) of the attackers "got through"
and was hitting me really hard, as hard as he could. Now the interesting
thing was that although I was terrified- I did not feel even one punch
and there was no damage or soreness to my body. After hitting the devil
out of me for about a couple minutes the guy turned red in the face
and fainted.



B) Another time a friend of mine Alain did his first ever defense ever.
He really was not ready, practice wise- but the attackers had no way of knowing this.
The attacker ran into him at full speed and knocked him on his rear.


C) I have tried the role of attacker before. It is very hard for me
to get and stay angry and try to hurt someone. I have trained
kung fu for many years and am always worried if i hurt
someone attacking them would I get into trouble.

(As an aside I think indonesians because of their
history and culture have a lot of latent
anger which is really easy for them to access.
I have seen quite a few incidents in my 8 years
here where they can get angry and ugly within
a second.)

The time I attacked someone they did not knock me down
but I hit them for a few minuted for as hard as I could
and they seemed to not feel the blows. Then I suddenly
became dizzy and fell- could have been from the exertion
however.

As an aside there is a demo yb does which attackers hit them
and they withstand the blows and the demo i had seen before my
attacking the member.

Now I must tell you this in all fairness. I have been told that for the
Yellow Bamboo to work the attacker must be really angry and have the intention
to hurt the defender. I have been told that Pak Serengen is the only
one who can knock down without angry intention. This is why he is the only
one I have put forward to do the challenge. Otherwise I would consider
doing it myself and foregoing all the mumbo jumbo of you joining etc.

Yes I know this is hard to prove someones intention.
BUT- if someone goes up to the defender and hits them really hard
it is not too much of a stretch to know they have intention to harm the
person, no?

So to put it scientifically could we then say that to prove it the attacker
must hit the defender hard or define how far back they would have to
swing their arm or bamboo stick? There must be a way we could operationally
define the attack to take into account the claims of Yellow Bamboo.

I *still* would like for you and I to devise
a way to discover for sure 100% whether
it really works or not. I would even
forgo the million bucks- IE take it
off the table, just to find out
the truth. All fo the money would be
used by YB to travel the world and give free
seminars and I wouldnt get any of it anyway
so it is no big deal to me.

I am a best selling author and a genius
at real estate so making big dough
is never a challenge to me.

I really think to be fair to you and Yellow
Bamboo we should devise a test which
takes into account all of their points
as well as yours.

*That way if we do a test with all of their
points covered and they fail, they would have
NO excuses, No?*

Now would you reconsider your position
and come to Bali to do the test? It would certainly
eliminate any questions as to whether
yellow bamboo is for real or not.

Here are a couple more reasons why I would
respectfully ask you to do it the YB way.

1. If you do it the yb way and they lose, they have no excuses.

2. I am not sure if you realize it or not but it would be
*very* difficult if not impossible for Mr Serengen, an Indonesian,
to even get a visa to the USA. I know this from experience
and am sure you can readily verify.

Also I am not sure I could get Mr Serengen to agree to come.
This would also eliminate two possible excuses of Mr Serengen.

a) YB may claim that it works only in Bali- which many people believe
Bali has special magic powers. Well if it were true that it works only
in Bali and it were true, that would still be a supernatural thing would it not?

I would hate for YB to say well it works in bali but not in florida as an excuse.

b) If say I came and lost, YB could say well it only works for yb in bali
or only works for Mr Serengen.

So what I hope I am conveying here is if you did come here
and do it the YB way and they lost they would have no excuses because it
could be claimed they won the joko tri test but lost in florida cause the conditions
were different. If we really want to get to the truth let us leave YB with no
wiggle room, no doubt about if it works or not.

Now on the other hand if you did come here and it really does work
that would also be something too, no?

All the best,

Alvin
 
Alvin,

Did you write this?

You know, the first books I ever obtained from the library at age 6 were about meditation and magic. Even though much of what I read was not easily digested for a child I did already understand that power can be brought to bear for anyone with the serious desire to use it well. I got involved with Yellow Bamboo because I though it would be interesting to be able to knock people down 10 yards away by striking my hand on the ground. I have pursued Yellow Bamboo past that point now to enjoy it in all aspects of my life.
Click to expand...

It can be found here.
 
This is weird.

It could all be Randi having his little joke, but why should he? He's previously stated with some pride that nobody has ever passed the preliminary test. Why would he risk spoiling that record by agreeing to some crappy poorly-documented test, just so he could have a joke?

One of the things the Challenge is good for is throwing it in the faces of uppity charlatans. "If you can really do what you say, go get the million bucks, why don't you?" For that to be effective, the Challenge has to have an upright reputation. Agreeing to this sort of nonsense doesn't do anyone any favours in that department.

Another thing is the confidence that we have in Randi's ability to run a watertight challenge. It's not easy. Look at the painstaking nature of the real preliminary tests we've been told about. The Russian girl who claimed to be able to read through a blindfold. She seemed to be able to do it so long as her mother was in charge of the blindfolding. She was quite cute about working little chinks to see through even when the sceptics controlled the process. It was only someone's bright idea of using a face cream which would block vision and in which any breaches could be seen which really cooked her goose.

Nowhere do we see any suggestion that she managed to read a few lines a couple of times after she's had half an hour to work on the sceptics' blindfold, so she's passed. She was repeatedly tested in the full light of day to test her claims rigorously.

How does that square with this little episode? Oh, there was so much delay it drifted on till after dark? We only did it once? Get real.

Heck, I don't even get the impression that the Yellow Bamboo people even want the money. Have they applied? Have they agreed a protocol? If they want the money, why are they being so coy about co-operating with a test? Why is there that stuff in Alvin's post (I'm assuming it was him) about maybe the great high guru won't agree to a test?

This is all Alvin (if it is he) spinning a yarn, and if there's any notarised agreement, I'm the proverbial Dutchman's uncle. No way does this farrago of nonsense even come close to squaring up to the rigour of what we can all read about the genuine preliminary tests.

Yes, Randi is good at keeping quiet and letting everybody hang themselves with their own rope. But I wish he's hurry up and put an end to this. I'll tell you why.

Actually running a rigorous, valid test of a paranormal claim isn't easy, as I said. It's not the demonstration that's hard, it's the surrounding precautions to ensure that the results are watertight enough to be accepted by all sides. Including the bit about self-evident results. Randi's challenge is a great resource against kooks and woo-woos, to deflect the need to get sucked into some sort of half-baked circus, with the confidence that if the kook or woo-woo actually goes for it, the resulting test will indeed be properly conducted.

Just as a personal example. I have been challenged by a professional colleague who is a homoeopath, in a professional journal. The homoeopath claims that it is possible to tell the difference between a homoeopathic remedy and a sham by the observable effects the remedy will have on a healthy person (so-called "homoeopathic proving"). In fact he proposed using me to demonstrate the effect, and set out a set of rules involving timing of doses and "seconds" (at twelve paces, presumably).

Now this is not only daft, it's harder than it need be. What's to prevent me simply denying I feel all these weird effects he's so convinced I'd experience? But if he himself, as a trained and experienced homoeopath, can reliably tell the difference between the remedy and the sham, he's eligible for the prize. Just to be sure, I've checked with the JREF, and had a reply in the affirmative.

I'd just love to see someone try this. But the sting is in the preparation of the materials. Both sides would have to be satisfied that all the diluting and succussing of the solutions was done properly, and nobody has snuck a bit of something tasty into either of the preparations. If would take a lot of time and a lot of trouble and a lot of organising. Personally, I'm not prepared to get into all this just on a whim, especially as I've no experience in devising protocols to eliminate deliberate fraud.

It's only worth the trouble if it's done as a preliminary test for the Prize, and that way responsibility for ensuring the test is watertight can be passed over to the JREF. My position is that if my colleague really believes in himself, he should be prepared to go for the challenge. If not, please shut up already. My respect for the JREF up till now is such that if said colleague did actually look like going for it, I might even be prepared to chip in towards his expenses.

This one has gone quite far (though I doubt if it will really get to a formal application even so). But on many occasions the challenge gets thrown down in a similar way, really as "put up or shut up". Since the Horizon programme, throwing it at homoeopaths has been particularly satisfying. I note that two separate correspondents did exactly that in the online British Medical Journal rapid response letters column.

This is a valuable activity, and enabling it is a significant contribution by the JREF. However, it relies absolutely on everyone, including the sceptics, having confidence that the trials will be well conducted, rigorous, and properly documented. I would certainly reconsider my offer to chip in some cash towards my colleague's homoeopathy attempt if I thought that the test would be a farrago of nonsense like the Yellow Bamboo thing.

In addition, the charlatans already like chucking in accusations that the Challenge is flawed or rigged, to get out of having to put up. The more rumour and gossip there is about a successful preliminary test with poor controls and documentation, the bigger will be this problem

Come on, Randi - put a stop to this nonsense before it does damage to the reputation of the entire Challenge.

Rolfe.
 
Hello Rolfe,

I agree with your issues, and I actually put forward the same viewpoint a few days ago. The situation re this Yellow Bamboo "testing" now has far too many incongruities to be consistent, either as an outright fraud or as a genuine attempt at the JREF challenge.

You will note from the above exchange with "Alvin" that there seems to be a remarkable difference in styles of writing between his exchanges with me, and on the YB website and on the "YB Wins" announcement. The former is what appears to me to be a poor attempt at a literate person faking illiteracy or even nationality - a poor "surfer dude" who can hardly drive a PC. The latter is obviously someone for whom literate English is no problem at all. Very inconsistent - question marks appearing.

And the name - "Alvin G Donovan III"? That is a style of name clearly indicating "educated American". English should be no problem there. And such a person could know about notarised documents also. More question marks.

Then there is the announcement of the YB winning - on a US website and "signed" by our friend Alvin, NOT by any YB head honcho (there are 20,000 plus members, Alvin tells us). Interestingly, Alvin also appears on the YB website as one of the testamonials. Is he a front-man? Question marks everywhere now.

Then the admittance by Alvin above that the "testing" was basically an utter shambles anyway, hardly worthy of anything Randi might organise. In fact, from what I have seen so far there is nothing to show that it is even Yellow Bamboo involved at all in any way - just video of some Asian looking chaps at night on what looks like a stretch of sand SOMEWHERE in the world - possibly even Florida! Yet Alvin agrees this video is from YB. Forests of question marks now!

So, in conclusion, I feel that nothing here is what it seems - it's either a very bad piece of hoaxing, or something different ... I can't tell exactly which just yet. Mr Randi?
 
Indeed, Pyrrho, but where is it physically? There are "Australian" websites hosted out of Singapore these days, and also out of the USA for that matter.

More to the point, since there is no claim at all happening on the YB website, does this have any bearing on the situation anyway? That their ISP could indeed be physically located in Indonesia doesn't seem too relevant, does it?
 
Googling "Alvin G. Donovan".

He's a surfer?

He's written a book?
Make More Money Now

Dramatic New 21-day Money Making System Guaranteed to Make Everything You Say and Write Powerful, Influential, & Convincing

Author: Donovan, Alvin G.

Make More Money Now

ISBN: 0965707709
Format: hardback
Price: £ 15.00
Publisher: Pavillion, Limited
Orlando, FL - USA
Publication date:
1997-12-01
Click to expand...
 
Zep said:
Indeed, Pyrrho, but where is it physically? There are "Australian" websites hosted out of Singapore these days, and also out of the USA for that matter.

More to the point, since there is no claim at all happening on the YB website, does this have any bearing on the situation anyway? That their ISP could indeed be physically located in Indonesia doesn't seem too relevant, does it?
Click to expand...
I believe Pyrrho is not speaking of the Yellow Bamboo web site, but of forum poster yellowbamboo.
 
Zep said:
Hello Rolfe,

(snip)

So, in conclusion, I feel that nothing here is what it seems - it's either a very bad piece of hoaxing, or something different ... I can't tell exactly which just yet. Mr Randi?
Click to expand...
Hello Zep!

I favour the hoax theory. After I posted the above I saw some information on another thread that there had actually been a Yellow Bamboo application for the challenge, and
Two rec.martial-arts regulars lined up travel arrangements to go to Bali and give them a whack. However it has not yet happened.
Click to expand...
It looks to me as if the Joko (Joker?) Tri episode is thus someone muscling in on these arrangements, and trying to pre-empt the arranged trial with a little publicity stunt of his own. Some documents will of course exist if there has been a genuine application, so the joker may think he can make these obfuscating allegations stick.

This could all be one person with a few Asian-looking mates on a beach anywhere, a video-camera, and some Internet access. And I suspect that's exactly all it is.

Motive? Stir up enough confusion to damage the good name of the JREF. Plausible? Given that this may actually be a real danger if things go on, I do wish Randi would deal with it.

Rolfe.
 
Maybe this is the old "Yellow Bamboozle".

This is eerie. I originally wrote this on Thorsday and predicted Randi would use the pun on the next commentary.

Let's try again. "Ladybrooke"
 
Any hypothesis about the mechanisms behind what was demonstrated on the video must explain:
1. why Joko fell to the ground, and
2. why he was twitching afterwards.

Here are the opinions spun by forum members so far for the fall and the twitching, in no order of plausability:

-an acting job (conscious)
-more 'placebo effect' or role playing/group pressure (unconscious)
-the master's power/force caused it all
-kicked to the back (hard kick caused muscle twitching)
-stun gun

Any others? (besides pancake rabbits.. ;) )
 
arcticpenguin said:

I believe Pyrrho is not speaking of the Yellow Bamboo web site, but of forum poster yellowbamboo.
Click to expand...
Aaah! Then I agree with him in that case. The chances of such a site being non-US are much lower.
 
Goshawk said:
Googling "Alvin G. Donovan".

He's a surfer?

...in which he asks about people who surf and "get high, "presumably on dope. Maybe he was toking when he thought he would try this little scam...

He's written a book?


This scam's NOT a great advertisement for his book, is it!
Click to expand...
 
Rolfe and T'ai Chi, this hoax is just getting more and more unravelled as we discover more about Mr "Alvin" and his self-confessed (mis)behaviour - see above.

So I'm now far less concerned over what was shown in the video or even how it came to be, to be honest. As I said above, it could be ANYONE ANYWHERE. For example, has it even been proven, apart from Alvin's say-so, that the person in the video is actually said "Joko Tri"? Or that "the master" is actually Mr Serengen?

Any further analysis is a waste of neurons and electrons, basically.
 
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