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Open Letter to Dave Thomas

You know, it doesn't really matter. I get the gist of your "smoky fires are nevertheless hot" thesis. What isn't explained is, in a 6-hour fire, why would those fires keep themselves to an inner portion of the building? The building isn't all that wide between the south and north walls. Maybe because they were small and smouldering?
 
Sorry, don't think I can be of much help. It's not you, however, it's just your arguments. They would convince folks better if they weren't wrong.

So you agree completely with Dave Rogers statement:

'your statement that "With a free falling object all the available gravitational potential energy has been converted to kinetic energy" is inconsistent with simple Newtonian mechanics.'
 
So you agree completely with Dave Rogers statement:

'your statement that "With a free falling object all the available gravitational potential energy has been converted to kinetic energy" is inconsistent with simple Newtonian mechanics.'

No, it's probably more like he doesn't agree with any of your statements, like:

"All the evidence includes the eutectic reactions ("intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese.") and nano-thermite particles in the dust. How does that evidence support fire?"

But I'll let him speak for himself.
 
Again, AEM is about node disconnection. NIST modeled the building with releases based on connection capacities. What you're seeing is those connections not failing.
What I'm seeing is a linguini version of WTC 7...
604072600.jpg

...
nmrc2.gif


So, again, with reference to your question...
Newtons Bit said:
Do you accept engineering Finite Element Analysis as a valid means of determining how a structure behaves?
I'm okay with FEA on a small scale, but as I said, FEA becomes very unstable and diverges from reality rapidly as such complex behaviour progresses (ends up looking like soggy linguini, rather than reality).

If my allegory is *bare assertion fallacy and incorrect*, then would you dig me out some video of WTC 7 matching the NIST global model behaviour please.
 
See NCSTAR 1-9 Vol. 2 p. 586 (248 of the pdf). It outlines how the columns behaved in the model. You'll notice that they state that all columns from floor 7 to 14 buckled. When this occurs, there is no vertical support from floor 7 to 14. Free-fall will ensue.

Satisfied?

I'm looking for _evidence_ not completely unsupported pronouncements. Thanks for proving that you are in fact defending a theory with absolutely no evidence to support it. That is, you are supporting pseudo-science not science.
 
You know, it doesn't really matter. I get the gist of your "smoky fires are nevertheless hot" thesis. What isn't explained is, in a 6-hour fire, why would those fires keep themselves to an inner portion of the building? The building isn't all that wide between the south and north walls. Maybe because they were small and smouldering?

Your uneducated opinion has been shown to be incorrect many times.

No matter how many times you repeat it, it still will not change the fact that you are still arguing from personal ignorance.
 
I'm looking for _evidence_ not completely unsupported pronouncements. Thanks for proving that you are in fact defending a theory with absolutely no evidence to support it. That is, you are supporting pseudo-science not science.

Your lack of understanding does not constitute a lack of evidence.

What is, however, completely lacking, is evidence for CD.
 
Do you think ozeco's statement might have been better expressed as:

"the temperature the steel reaches is a more important factor in weakening steel than the heat produced." ?
 
I'm looking for _evidence_ not completely unsupported pronouncements. Thanks for proving that you are in fact defending a theory with absolutely no evidence to support it. That is, you are supporting pseudo-science not science.

You are NOT looking for evidence. You have already decided what you believe; you are merely looking for ammunition.
 
Do you think ozeco's statement might have been better expressed as:

"the temperature the steel reaches is a more important factor in weakening steel than the heat produced." ?

Sure, if it makes you feel better. It's no different than saying "the temperature of the steel" or "steel's temperature." Whatever word you want to latch onto, man.
 
re: 7 World Trade Center fires on 9/11

Just out of curiosity, with oxygen rushing in to feed the fires (from broken windows, the 20-story gash, etc.) and the combustible fuel for the fire being entirely inside the building, why would these fires be expected to progress outside the WTC7 building? Is there anything atypical at all about the behavior of these fires?
 
The eutectic reactions support temperatures in the region of 1000ºC over long periods of time, are clearly incompatible with brief exposure to very high temperatures, and are therefore evidence of fire in the rubble pile following collapse. The "nano-thermite particles" in the dust are quite obviouisly misidentified by poor-quality analysis carried out by biased studies with a preconceived agenda, and don't therefore support anything because they're not credible evidence.

Dave

Ah so while the building is standing the fires are not hot enough to melt steel. But after it collapses into a pile with no oxygen the fires are hot enough to melt steel. Your completely unsupported hand-waving pronouncement that no nano-thermite particles were found is very convincing.
 
Ah so while the building is standing the fires are not hot enough to melt steel. But after it collapses into a pile with no oxygen the fires are hot enough to melt steel.

I'd be more sympathetic to this idiocy if eutectic reactions hadn't been explained ad nauseum for the past 9 years.

Your completely unsupported hand-waving pronouncement that no nano-thermite particles were found is very convincing.
They weren't found. The "nano-thermite" that was "found" turned out not to be nano-thermite. You're not very good at this.
 
Just out of curiosity, with oxygen rushing in to feed the fires (from broken windows, the 20-story gash, etc.) and the combustible fuel for the fire being entirely inside the building, why would these fires be expected to progress outside the WTC7 building? Is there anything atypical at all about the behavior of these fires?

No.
 
Sorry, but in order for this layman to believe that nano-thermite was found, I'm going to need more than just people like cmatrix declaring it was on obscure internet forums, or Jones' so-called "research".
 
:dl::dl::dl:

No further comment necessary.

Dave

The depths you will go to avoid admitting a mistake. You said:

"it is utterly false to claim that "all the available gravitational potential energy has been converted to kinetic energy" in the freefall phase, because a part of the available gravitational kinetic energy was converted to fracture energy before the freefall phase began."

You hold up a bowling ball. At that point the bowling ball has a certain amount of GPE (the sum total before it hits the ground). You drop the ball. At any point now in free fall only some of the current GPE is available to be converted to KE but in free fall all of that portion of GPE is converted to KE. If it wasn't the energy would not balance violating the law of conservation of energy. Laughing now?
 
Ah so while the building is standing the fires are not hot enough to melt steel. But after it collapses into a pile with no oxygen the fires are hot enough to melt steel. Your completely unsupported hand-waving pronouncement that no nano-thermite particles were found is very convincing.

Do you not understand what an eutectic reaction is?

And no, nano-thermite particles being found by someone, then submitted to a know fraud, who publishes it in a sham journal, and refuses to submit his samples to an independant lab for confirmation, is not very convincing.

Not to mention that the nano-thermite would have hd very little, if ANY effect on the steel.
 
So you agree completely with Dave Rogers statement:

'your statement that "With a free falling object all the available gravitational potential energy has been converted to kinetic energy" is inconsistent with simple Newtonian mechanics.'

cmatrix, let me remind you of the example I gave. An object falls a distance H1-H2, releasing potential energy mg(H1-H2), of which a part mV2 is converted to kinetic energy and another part E2 is converted to fracture energy. It then falls a further distance H2-H3 in freefall, converting mg(H2-H3) to kinetic energy. "All the available potential energy" is {mV2+E2+mg(H2-H3)}, {mV2+mg(H2-H3)} has been converted to kinetic energy, and E2 has not. All of this is consistent with Newtonian mechanics, and contradicts your statement; therefore, your statement contradicts Newtonian mechanics.

Apart from content-free scoffing (because you've already done that), would you like to point out any part of the above scenario, in which an object is in free fall and not all of the available gravitational potential energy has been converted to kinetic energy, is inconsistent with Newtonian mechanics?

Let's take another, rather simpler example, as I know you're having trouble comprehending the one above. Suppose an object falls from a height H, in freefall, having available gravitational potential energy mgH. At the moment it passes height H/2, it has converted mgH/2 gravitational potential energy to kinetic energy. So, we have an object in freefall, but not all of its available gravitational potential energy has been converted to kinetic energy. Again, which part of that is inconsistent with Newtonian mechanics?

At this point, cmatrix, the gracious thing to do is to say "OK, I didn't express that very clearly; what I meant to say is that the gravitational potential energy of an object in freefall can only be converted to kinetic energy while it is in freefall", and then I'd say, "OK, if that's what you meant then I agree with it", and we could get back to discussing the rather obvious fact that WTC7 converted its gravitational potential energy to fracture energy before the period of freefall, so your statement is actually irrelevant.

Alternatively, you could continue to bluster and dodge, and quibble over the meaning of the word "available" in the pretence that its standard meaning is "released between the instant of entering freefall and the instant of measurement", when in fact that would simply reduce your statement to the already universally understood truth that WTC7 could not - as, indeed, it did not, and nobody is suggesting it did - cause significant damage to intact supports while collapsing at near-freefall acceleration. But we all know that's a strawman argument, so there's very little for you to gain by it.

Your choice: intellectual honesty or meaningless bluster.

Dave
 

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