Open Carry: Oklahoma scores partial victory

[crimresearch]

There is a risk. I posted a link to demonstrate the risk. I really don't care about your browbeating. I reject your characterization of the link. I'm not here for a pissing contest.

Again, this isn't even coherent. I stand by my posting of the link and would do it again. I'm not really interested in your personal issues. If you would like to have a discussion with me I'm all for that. If you are going to continue in this manner I will simply put you on ignore.

As opposed to admitting that the study says what it says and actually engaging in the dialectic? Oh, wait...

 

[arthwollipot]

Absolutely agreed. Deciding whether to own a gun, how to store it, whether to carry it, etc, is definitely a matter for serious mature thought.

I agree with this too. Now if only I could be reassured that most potential gun owners would actually engage in said serious, mature thought.

The gun owners here on this forum are one thing. I fully believe that every one of you are serious and mature about your gun ownership. I don't believe that all gun owners are like you. I'd like to, but I can't.

On the other side of the coin, I posted this in another thread yesterday:

In other news, one of my Twitter followees posted a link to this news report with the comment "National Parks to be overrun by lunatics with guns. Thanks, Liberal voters of NSW."

Other people are saying that they now need to be worried about being shot while mountain biking.

Now, call me mad, but I just don't see "a limited number of areas under strict conditions" to be the same thing as "overrun". I would also object to the characterisation of "lunatics with guns", but... well, it's the Hunters and Fisher's Party.

I would really like to point this out to them, but I know what it's like when I get into a gun argument here. Better not to engage.

...nah.

 

[3point14]

No, because it is not practical. This was explained earlier. The tired old arguments of "Well do you carry a (Insert impractical item) with you everywhere you go?" is not valid and does not compare to carrying a gun. A gun is relatively cheap, requires minimal training to use, minimal upkeep, and is easy to carry.

So please let's all stop with the silly arguments.

Oh, relax, it's a message board. I'm wondering what the relative odds are, do you know?

As I've said before, lots of americans are far too stuck to their guns to do anything about taking them away, so I'm not advocating that, just as I wouldn't advocate US type firearms laws in the UK or Australia or anywhere else where guns are not freely available.

The problem is actually bullets, I feel. I wouldn't know where to buy bullets in the UK. In the US they sell them in supermarkets, I understand. Horses for courses.


Oh, but I would add that, according to some advocates on this thread, carrying a weapon, especially concealed, is a pain in the neck and not as simple as all that. And you can get some fairly small parachutes.

 

[Cylinder]

In the US they sell them in supermarkets, I understand

Absolutely, you can. There's a 24/7/364 store less than two miles from where I sit.

FMJs and a gallon of milk at 3AM? That's freedom!

 

[Quad4_72]

Oh, relax, it's a message board. I'm wondering what the relative odds are, do you know?

As I've said before, lots of americans are far too stuck to their guns to do anything about taking them away, so I'm not advocating that, just as I wouldn't advocate US type firearms laws in the UK or Australia or anywhere else where guns are not freely available.

The problem is actually bullets, I feel. I wouldn't know where to buy bullets in the UK. In the US they sell them in supermarkets, I understand. Horses for courses.


Oh, but I would add that, according to some advocates on this thread, carrying a weapon, especially concealed, is a pain in the neck and not as simple as all that. And you can get some fairly small parachutes.

Hmmm. Which individuals advocated that? Carrying a firearm is not a pain in the neck whatsoever. You just gotta find the right holster and weapon that is the best fit for you. Perhaps they are attempting to conceal carry this weapon:

 

[3point14]

Hmmm. Which individuals advocated that? Carrying a firearm is not a pain in the neck whatsoever. You just gotta find the right holster and weapon that is the best fit for you. Perhaps they are attempting to conceal carry this weapon:
[qimg]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0TdtycCxOI8/SZySckHV1rI/AAAAAAAABPk/UYNq7FIf3iE/s400/magnum.bmp[/qimg]

This post from Garrette is the one that I was thinking of.

I've left it it's entirety so there's no misunderstanding (except, perhaps my possible misunderstanding of his post)

I suspect you and I are very close in our views of gun rights and gun responsibility.

Not including the military I have worked several posititions in which I openly carried (licensed security, not law enforcement). In addition, I own a handgun. The most I've ever owned simultaneously is two, and I am considering going back to that number.

Where is my one handgun right now? In a storage locker over a mile from my home. But if I ever decide to keep it at home I will feel comfortable that I am impinging on no one else's rights or safety in doing so.

I have a concealed carry license; in addition, being a military officer equates to concealed carry rights in some states (my own being one of them), though I wouldn't push that; I doubt that most police officers or courts realize that law is on the books.

But I have only carried concealed twice in my life. The first was when I was brand new to handguns and carried unloaded for a day simply to learn the logistics of doing it. It aint' easy to carry concealed all day.

The second was on very rural private property that happened to be in the middle of moonshine and marijuana production territory. Though private, it was common for it to be traversed by rifle-toting good ol' boys, some of whom were simply walking home from squirrel hunting and some of whom were drunk or high or both. I'm glad I carried then as there was one point at which I made ready to pull it. Didn't have to, but the ability was there.

Which gets back to the responsibility part. A large part of why I didn't have to pull it is because I take pains to avoid it, just as I take pains to avoid having to throw a punch when not armed.

Ah, well. Long winded tangent. Sorry.

 

[Quad4_72]

This post from Garrette is the one that I was thinking of.

I've left it it's entirety so there's no misunderstanding (except, perhaps my possible misunderstanding of his post)

Take a look at the parts I bolded:

I suspect you and I are very close in our views of gun rights and gun responsibility.

Not including the military I have worked several posititions in which I openly carried (licensed security, not law enforcement). In addition, I own a handgun. The most I've ever owned simultaneously is two, and I am considering going back to that number.

Where is my one handgun right now? In a storage locker over a mile from my home. But if I ever decide to keep it at home I will feel comfortable that I am impinging on no one else's rights or safety in doing so.

I have a concealed carry license; in addition, being a military officer equates to concealed carry rights in some states (my own being one of them), though I wouldn't push that; I doubt that most police officers or courts realize that law is on the books.

But I have only carried concealed twice in my life. The first was when I was brand new to handguns and carried unloaded for a day simply to learn the logistics of doing it. It aint' easy to carry concealed all day.

The second was on very rural private property that happened to be in the middle of moonshine and marijuana production territory. Though private, it was common for it to be traversed by rifle-toting good ol' boys, some of whom were simply walking home from squirrel hunting and some of whom were drunk or high or both. I'm glad I carried then as there was one point at which I made ready to pull it. Didn't have to, but the ability was there.

Which gets back to the responsibility part. A large part of why I didn't have to pull it is because I take pains to avoid it, just as I take pains to avoid having to throw a punch when not armed.

Ah, well. Long winded tangent. Sorry.

While he has lots of open carry experience, it appears that he has very, very little concealed carry experience. There is nothing wrong with that, but the reason he stated that you can't carry concealed all day is probably because he did not have a proper/comfortable set up that would have enabled him to carry concealed all day with no problems. If he wanted to take the time, he could definitely find a set up that fits his style/body type that would be comfortable all day long.

 

[luchog]

I agree with this too. Now if only I could be reassured that most potential gun owners would actually engage in said serious, mature thought.

Well, the fact that only a miniscule fraction of the over 8 million legally-owned firearms in the US are used for criminal activities or are involved in easily-avoidable accidents would tend to indicate that they do.

 

[3point14]

Take a look at the parts I bolded:



While he has lots of open carry experience, it appears that he has very, very little concealed carry experience. There is nothing wrong with that, but the reason he stated that you can't carry concealed all day is probably because he did not have a proper/comfortable set up that would have enabled him to carry concealed all day with no problems. If he wanted to take the time, he could definitely find a set up that fits his style/body type that would be comfortable all day long.

Fair points all.

It's still a damn big, and heavy, chunk of metal to be carrying around all day.

I think it would limit my running away options pretty severely.

 

[GeeMack]

Well, the fact that only a miniscule fraction of the over 8 million legally-owned firearms in the US are used for criminal activities or are involved in easily-avoidable accidents would tend to indicate that they do.

Probably more like 300 million legally owned firearms in the US, a third of them being handguns. (Skimmed from this source. It seems to be in agreement with other numbers found on the 'net.)

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I agree with this too. Now if only I could be reassured that most potential gun owners would actually engage in said serious, mature thought.

The gun owners here on this forum are one thing. I fully believe that every one of you are serious and mature about your gun ownership. I don't believe that all gun owners are like you. I'd like to, but I can't.

Why would you think the gun owners on this forum are not representative of firearm owners as a whole?

While stipulating the notion that "the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'", it's still reasonable to assume that, generally, your experiences are not unusual to the norm unless presented evidence to the contrary.

 

[3point14]

Why would you think the gun owners on this forum are not representative of firearm owners as a whole?

<Snipped>

Because this forum is a self selecting sample of pepople who think critically about things.


ETA: or think they do.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

<Snipped>

Because this forum is a self selecting sample of pepople who think critically about things.


ETA: or think they do.

The part you snipped is actually quite important.

 

[Xulld]

Fair points all.

It's still a damn big, and heavy, chunk of metal to be carrying around all day.

I think it would limit my running away options pretty severely.

Actually this is where modern tech has made big strides. Both of my hand guns I commonly carry weight much less, and are not really big hunks of metal.

There are actually a lot of lite weight options available today. Polymer frames ect.

 

[Quad4_72]

Fair points all.

It's still a damn big, and heavy, chunk of metal to be carrying around all day.

I think it would limit my running away options pretty severely.

Again, you are incorrect. Have you handled many firearms before? I have one of these (Which is not my primary carry, but a good example of a light weight option), and it weighs 1.2lbs loaded:

 

[3point14]

Again, you are incorrect. Have you handled many firearms before? I have one of these (Which is not my primary carry, but a good example of a light weight option), and it weighs 1.2lbs loaded:
[qimg]http://keltecweapons.com/uploaded_files/ourguns/gallery/b_91028d013dcee98eec3996410c641941PF9_4045.jpg[/qimg]

No, I don't like them.

Actually, that's not true, I have held a handgun once, a very long time ago (probably a decent indicator that my little knowledge is not current) and my abiding memory is how much heavier it was than I thought it was going to be. (having seen them thrown around like toys in movies)

 

[3point14]

The part you snipped is actually quite important.

I really don't think so, I'm afraid.

I don't know how you can think that this forum is representative of the general public anywhere. This forum, by definition, is filled with people who think (or think they think) critically about things. You say the words 'logical fallacy' to most people outside this forum or a similar venue and you get blank looks.

 

[Xulld]

I really don't think so, I'm afraid.

I don't know how you can think that this forum is representative of the general public anywhere. This forum, by definition, is filled with people who think (or think they think) critically about things. You say the words 'logical fallacy' to most people outside this forum or a similar venue and you get blank looks.

I really do not know how one would go about being sure about something like this . . .

All I have is my personal experiences. I tend to be a very calming, and safety oriented person so when I find individuals who are handling a firearm in less than ideal ways I make it a point to talk about why certain behaviors are less ideal, or more ideal. I tend to get good responses from people.

I know all of this is anecdotal, but I have interacted with a lot of folks who enjoy firearms, I regularly participate in pistol competitions and of course lots of gun enthusiasts participate. Now this group may also be an outlier in the sense that we self regulate our behaviors toward safety in every aspect of the sport. Safety first is an essential axiom.

I really do not know anyone who actively carries who is not also involved in some kind of sport shooting. I think once you habituate the firearm into your life it becomes interesting to test your capability, and then from there is becomes normal to either compete, or make a ritual of going to the range.

I know a lot of people who keep the firearm in the vehicle, or home and really do not carry it, and these folks tend to be the ones who either rarely train, or never train. I can think of a few people I have interacted with that I felt were just not safe, and based on some of the comments, maybe shouldn't have had a weapon at all, but its easy to discriminate, and sometimes people just talk big. Who knows . . .

Basically, my impression is that if a person interacts with the sporting gun community for any length of time, they either tow the safety line, or are asked not to come back. I can only think of a few times someone was asked to leave the gun range I frequent and to my knowledge a member has never been banned, but again all of this is just my own subjective impressions.

 

[Giz]

I really don't think so, I'm afraid.

I don't know how you can think that this forum is representative of the general public anywhere. This forum, by definition, is filled with people who think (or think they think) critically about things. You say the words 'logical fallacy' to most people outside this forum or a similar venue and you get blank looks.

I think that you overrate the actual amount of critical thinking on these forums. Just look at any hot topic thread. Also, does it necessarily matter anyway, after all "everybody is a skeptic when they are buying a used car". People who are into cars may know more about cars than the average member of these forums, and people who are into guns may know more about guns than the average member of these boards. (They might not know as much about logical debating terminology... but that doesn't mean that they are stupid).

 

[3point14]

I really do not know how one would go about being sure about something like this . . .

All I have is my personal experiences. I tend to be a very calming, and safety oriented person so when I find individuals who are handling a firearm in less than ideal ways I make it a point to talk about why certain behaviors are less ideal, or more ideal. I tend to get good responses from people.

I know all of this is anecdotal, but I have interacted with a lot of folks who enjoy firearms, I regularly participate in pistol competitions and of course lots of gun enthusiasts participate. Now this group may also be an outlier in the sense that we self regulate our behaviors toward safety in every aspect of the sport. Safety first is an essential axiom.

I really do not know anyone who actively carries who is not also involved in some kind of sport shooting. I think once you habituate the firearm into your life it becomes interesting to test your capability, and then from there is becomes normal to either compete, or make a ritual of going to the range.

I know a lot of people who keep the firearm in the vehicle, or home and really do not carry it, and these folks tend to be the ones who either rarely train, or never train. I can think of a few people I have interacted with that I felt were just not safe, and based on some of the comments, maybe shouldn't have had a weapon at all, but its easy to discriminate, and sometimes people just talk big. Who knows . . .

Basically, my impression is that if a person interacts with the sporting gun community for any length of time, they either tow the safety line, or are asked not to come back. I can only think of a few times someone was asked to leave the gun range I frequent and to my knowledge a member has never been banned, but again all of this is just my own subjective impressions.

But they're all the people that you know. Another self selecting sample.

Responsible gun owners mix with responsible gun owners.

I suspect irresponsible gun owners mix with irresponsible gun owners and that's clearly not you.