Open Carry: Oklahoma scores partial victory

[RandFan]

You claimed that there is a risk and your linked study talks about being X times more likely to be shot and Y times more likely to be killed. I don't think that I am misreprestenting you at all.

Oh please. Are you saying that you were not intending to imply anything about being more/less likely to be shot? What risk did you have in mind? A pulled muscle from lugging a gun around all day? If you weren't trying to make any kind of claim regarding the risk of being shot/killed, then why post the link?

There's a risk to just about anything. Heck, even sitting around doing nothing could land you with deep vein thrombosis. What you haven't shown is whether carrying would make you more (or less) at risk - assuming sensible, law abiding behavior.

There is a risk. I posted a link to demonstrate the risk. I really don't care about your browbeating. I reject your characterization of the link. I'm not here for a pissing contest.

Indeed. One might even wonder why you bothered linking to the study at all... link in haste, repent at leisure, eh Randfan?

Again, this isn't even coherent. I stand by my posting of the link and would do it again. I'm not really interested in your personal issues. If you would like to have a discussion with me I'm all for that. If you are going to continue in this manner I will simply put you on ignore.

 

[Giz]

There is a risk. I posted a link to demonstrate the risk.

Then help me out. What do you think the risk is? (Simply saying "there is a risk" and refusing to say if it is lower/higher etc is meaningless). What do you think that the link showed?

I really don't care about your browbeating

Oh please, each and everyone of your posts to me have been an attempt to browbeat your way out of a rhetorical hole.

 

[Xulld]

This thread is beginning to go to the dogs, but it's not so far down that road that it is irretrievable.

To oversimplify, the two main (recent) positions as exemplified by Xulld and RandFan are:

1. I carry a gun, but I'm okay with those who choose not to.

2. I don't carry a gun, but I'm okay with those who choose to.

But somehow in expressing those positions the meanings get lost or scrambled and each side moves more and more to the following arguments (not positions):

1. You have a fire extinguisher so by the same reasoning you should carry a gun.

2. You carry a gun so by the same reasoning you should carry a parachute in a plane.

It's at this point I generally stop following such threads, but I would be disappointed this time because at the core I find both Xulld and RandFan very reasonable in their arguments; lately, especially RandFan.

My only dog in the fight is to explain that low cost preparations with large risks of inaction are anything but irrational.

Even say deciding to carry pepper spray would fall under this same umbrella as an emergency tool for rare situations.

I just feel it is awfully odd to call anyone who prepares for rare events irrational. Seems to me that the event occurs, and has a low cost of preparation and a large cost of inaction makes it perfectly rational to prepare, and this goes for every single rare event that we commonly prepare for . . .

Otherwise I agree. I personally think the stigma of carrying a gun affects this conversation more than any statistics.

I've never had much use for carry laws, open or otherwise. If I'm going someplace where I think I might need a gun, the first thing I do is ask myself, "Do I really need to go there?" If the answer is "yes", then I take the gun. If the answer is "no", then I don't go. Whether or not the law approves makes no difference to me.

I'm a "better to be judged by twelve than carried by six" kind of guy.

Because of this policy, I hardly ever need to take my gun anywhere except the range.

I agree wholeheartedly with the first part, however the second part concerns me. Crime can occur anywhere a person can motivate themselves to travel to. Areas really are not dangerous, the people who live there are, and last time I check some of them have means of transportation.

 

[RandFan]

Oh please, each and everyone of your posts to me have been an attempt to browbeat your way out of a rhetorical hole.

No. And I won't ask you again. I will address your question if you simply agree to stop with the "oh please". I've done nothing to brow beat you. The rhetorical "thanks" was not browbeating but I will commit to dispensing with any snarky comments or unnecessary rhetoric if you will also. Let me know.

 

[RandFan]

My only dog in the fight is to explain that low cost preparations with large risks of inaction are anything but irrational.

Fallout shelters are low cost. Do you prepare for every possible risk. What is a "large risk" BTW?

 

[Xulld]

Fallout shelters are low cost. Do you prepare for every possible risk. What is a "large risk" BTW?

Loosing your life is the greatest risk one can take, and why so many people wash there veggies even tho it has been shown to have little benefit.

Fallout shelters are low cost.

Really? I can build one for less than 200 bucks? What exactly are you calling low cost?

Was it irrational to build a fallout shelter during the height of the cold war? Just curious if you think that was also irrational. Personally I think this is a red herring that has already been shown to be completely without merit in comparing to the topic at hand.

Also mass shootings was just an example, really I carry the gun for ANY and all violent crime.

in 2006, 6 million violent assaults took place. Still rare, but where is your personal break point?
Would a national statistic even matter to you? Or would a local statistics make more of a difference? I have already explained my own position, and what has motivated me. I am curious what it would take to get you to carry a firearm?

 

[RandFan]

Loosing your life is the greatest risk one can take, and why so many people wash there veggies even tho it has been shown to have little benefit.

Really? I can build one for less than 200 bucks?

So, a nuclear attack is a large risk. Have you built that fallout shelter?

I don't usually wash my fruits and vegetables (unless they are obviously dirty). I don't do a lot of the things people do for safety reasons. I don't lock my doors at night. I keep my windows open in the summer time.

I make informed choices. I respect your right to make informed choices. I've not said having a fire arm is irrational. I've said being concerned about a shooting spree is irrational.

 

[Xulld]

So, a nuclear attack is a large risk. Have you built that fallout shelter?

I don't usually wash my fruits and vegetables (unless they are obviously dirty). I don't do a lot of the things people do for safety reasons. I don't lock my doors at night. I keep my windows open in the summer time.

I make informed choices. I respect your right to make informed choices. I've not said having a fire arm is irrational. I've said being concerned about a shooting spree is irrational.

. . but do you go around calling anyone who does irrational?

I've said being concerned about a shooting spree is irrational.

Actually I believe you said carrying is irrational, which encompasses much more than shooting sprees, see my edit in the last post.

 

[Giz]

No. And I won't ask you again. I will address your question if you simply agree to stop with the "oh please". I've done nothing to brow beat you. The rhetorical "thanks" was not browbeating but I will commit to dispensing with any snarky comments or unnecessary rhetoric if you will also. Let me know.

OK. For civility, there will be no more "please" or "thank you" from either of us

So, what do you think effect of carrying is on risk? I have to admit, based on your responses I am not sure what you think the link demonstrated?

 

[RandFan]

Really? I can build one for less than 200 bucks? What exactly are you calling low cost?

What are you calling high cost? When I was a kid my father had one of those booklets on how to build one. The cheapest was a hole in the ground lined and covered with railroad ties. I think you need to cover the ties with a foot of dirt.

 

[RandFan]

OK. For civility, there will be no more "please" or "thank you" from either of us

So, what do you think effect of carrying is on risk? I have to admit, based on your responses I am not sure what you think the link demonstrated?

Thanks. You were correct and I didn't read the article critically. I'll withdraw the study.

Carrying a gun is a risk. You can't have an accidental discharge if you don't have a gun. Some people are incompetent. Some people lack the confidence or will to even use a gun and it can be taken from them and used against them. Some people are more likely to commit suicide if they have a gun. I might not be here today if I had a gun during a particularly dark time in my life.

So, the idea that I should be worried about a shooting spree and run out and buy a gun is absurd.

I never claimed that carrying a gun is irrational but I should have done a better job of vetting the study. Sorry.

 

[Xulld]

I never claimed that carrying a gun is irrational but I should have done a better job of vetting the study.

Then my apologies for misunderstanding.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

I agree wholeheartedly with the first part, however the second part concerns me. Crime can occur anywhere a person can motivate themselves to travel to. Areas really are not dangerous, the people who live there are, and last time I check some of them have means of transportation.

You're right, crime can occur anywhere. But, as much as people hate to admit it, it tends to happen in certain areas. My life is arranged so I can avoid those areas. When I can't, I pack a gun. Because of my job and my hobbies, I'm rarely more than a couple of feet from a gun of some kind.

Criminals with transportation don't really show up in my town (I live in the sticks). Nothing worth stealing.

 

[RandFan]

Then my apologies for misunderstanding.

Cool. We can put this one to bed. And I do very much appreciate your responding to me when I asked your opinion at the beginning of this sub thread.

 

[Giz]

Thanks. You were correct and I didn't read the article critically. I'll withdraw the study.

No problem. Sorry if I came over a bit harsh earlier.

Carrying a gun is a risk. You can't have an accidental discharge if you don't have a gun. Some people are incompetent. Some people lack the confidence or will to even use a gun and it can be taken from them and used against them. Some people are more likely to commit suicide if they have a gun.

Absolutely agreed. Deciding whether to own a gun, how to store it, whether to carry it, etc, is definitely a matter for serious mature thought.

I might not be here today if I had a gun during a particularly dark time in my life.

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope things are better for you now.

So, the idea that I should be worried about a shooting spree and run out and buy a gun is absurd.

It would certainly be a distraction from finishing digging the fallout shelter

I never claimed that carrying a gun is irrational but I should have done a better job of vetting the study. Sorry.

No problem.

FWIW, our situations are probably similar in that I don't carry (because I feel it is extremely unlikely that I'd ever need it) but I have no problem with people deciding otherwise (and a number of my friends do carry).

 

[Xulld]

You're right, crime can occur anywhere. But, as much as people hate to admit it, it tends to happen in certain areas. My life is arranged so I can avoid those areas. When I can't, I pack a gun. Because of my job and my hobbies, I'm rarely more than a couple of feet from a gun of some kind.

Criminals with transportation don't really show up in my town (I live in the sticks). Nothing worth stealing.

Ahh makes sense, lucky you! I am looking for some land a little further from gangland USA myself, and would love to be able to build my own range!!

Cool. We can put this one to bed. And I do very much appreciate your responding to me when I asked your opinion at the beginning of this sub thread.

Likewise, I appreciate the dialog.

 

[AlBell]

You're right, crime can occur anywhere. But, as much as people hate to admit it, it tends to happen in certain areas. My life is arranged so I can avoid those areas. When I can't, I pack a gun. Because of my job and my hobbies, I'm rarely more than a couple of feet from a gun of some kind.

Criminals with transportation don't really show up in my town (I live in the sticks). Nothing worth stealing.

That and the refrigerator and broken-down sofa on the front porch, plus the 55 ford on concrete blocks where a front lawn should be?

j/k.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

Do you have any idea what the differential out of a '55 Ford is worth?

Quite a bit, that's why I keep it in the chest freezer in the back yard.

 

[AlBell]

Do you have any idea what the differential out of a '55 Ford is worth?

Depends if its' positraction. Was it an 8" or 9" that year?

Quite a bit, that's why I keep it in the chest freezer in the back yard.

Good Plan! No back porch?

 

[Howie Felterbush]

Good Plan! No back porch?

I wanted to put it under the porch, but that's where the dog sleeps.