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OOS Collapse Propagation Model

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I think that the primary cause of the progressive collapses was the failure of the connections between the floors and the columns as a direct result of massive dynamic overloading from the debris falling from above striking them. I think that the loss of those connections caused the columns to lose most of their vertical stability....
So, in essence, you agree with Major_Tom on the explanation which he labels "ROOSD"? Is your disagreement with the label?
..and that the mass of the falling floors pressed outwards until it overloaded the connections between the exterior column panels and some of them in a fairly spectacular manner....
maybe - that is different to what I suspect M_T would claim and different to what I would claim but...
I think that many exterior columns simply toppled over instead of being "Ejected" in very large (or tall if you prefer) sections and those columns were the ones found furthest away....
Still mostly in agreement with Major_Tom...
I also think that the core columns finally fell due to a combination of a lack of horizontal bracing and being buffeted at their bases...
Well that is different to what I suspect M_T would claim and different to what I would claim but it falls outside the scope of the present discussion.
....If you disagree with this overly simplistic description then explain with what and why you disagree....
Do you presume that he disagrees? Why? (Except the core collapse bit where your explanation seems to be either unusual or even unique.)
 
So, in essence, you agree with Major_Tom on the explanation which he labels "ROOSD"? Is your disagreement with the label? maybe - that is different to what I suspect M_T would claim and different to what I would claim but... Still mostly in agreement with Major_Tom... Well that is different to what I suspect M_T would claim and different to what I would claim but it falls outside the scope of the present discussion.
Do you presume that he disagrees? Why? (Except the core collapse bit where your explanation seems to be either unusual or even unique.)

My disagreement with M_T has to do not with what he says but how he says it. I can see where he is ultimately going by using the weasel wording that he does and that's "The explosives dun did it" route, which I already know (not think but know) is patently and provably false. Most of what M_T says is exactly what I and others have said for years now.

As far as the core columns go that's not really an unusual description of what probably happened. The cores weren't designed nor intended to stand on their own and there was a tremendous amount of energy being dissipated at their bases. One would have to be a fool to not think that that energy dissipation wasn't a factor in the way that they finally fell.
 
Ronan Point

Oh dear. Colour me unimpressed. That's it ? That's why, in your opinion... once the initiation phase had completed there were already previous studies as to what happened., and so NIST (or anyone else by what you are saying) did not need to bother looking at progression at all ? Wow. You think progressive collapse of a small corner of a 1960's concrete box tower block is comparable to and negates any need to study the post-initiation behaviour of WTC1/2 ? Astounding.

I can't help you if you can't or won't understand how comparisons work.
Help me ? You are speaking from a position of faux authority. Funny man. Can't or won't understand ? Oh, I think I understand quite well...

You appear very reluctant to answer a very simple question with a yes/no...

Do you agree that the primary post-initiation mechanism of destruction for WTC 1 & 2 was Runaway Open Office Space Desctruction...aka progressive failure of the composite floor system...aka pancaking ?

Yes, or no ?

Comparing Ronan point to the WTC is not like comparing apples and oranges, it's comparing apples to apples. What you seem to want is the equivalent of an in-depth study of a Washington Red apple being turned into applesauce when all that's really necessary is a general description of any apple getting turned into apple sauce. While there may be some minor differences the gross outcome is the same for both.
Wow. Quite the engineer'y statement thaa'

There may be some differences ? :jaw-dropp

I think that the primary cause of the progressive collapses was the failure of the connections between the floors and the columns as a direct result of massive dynamic overloading from the debris falling from above striking them.
So, again...

Do you agree that the primary post-initiation mechanism of destruction for WTC 1 & 2 was Runaway Open Office Space Desctruction...aka progressive failure of the composite floor system...aka pancaking ?

You appear to.

Yes, or no ?
 
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My disagreement with M_T has to do not with what he says but how he says it.
Although my disagreements with Major_Tom have more to do with what he says, how we say things matters also. For example...

One would have to be a fool to not think that that energy dissipation wasn't a factor in the way that they finally fell.
Wow, a triple negation. Many people have trouble with negation, so I view triply negated statements with suspicion. Is Sam.I.Am trying to pull a fast one? Did he/she even mean what he/she wrote?
  1. "One would have to be a fool" signals Sam.I.Am's disagreement with the remainder of the sentence.
  2. "To not think..." being wrong (in Sam.I.Am's opinion), he/she must be saying that "To think..." would be right.
  3. So Sam.I.Am must think "that energy dissipation wasn't a factor in the way that they finally fell."
That, however, would appear to contradict Bažant's papers, which Sam.I.Am has been supporting. I believe there is a non-negligible possibility that Sam.I.Am confused him/herself with that triple negation, so I'm going to suggest that everyone ignore Sam.I.Am's post until he/she confirms that his/her triple negation says what he/she intended to say.

Should Sam.I.Am claim that energy dissipation was a factor, then we should ignore his/her triply negated sentence forever.
 
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Most of what M_T says is exactly what I and others have said for years now.

Possibly in internet forums, but in the professional and academic communities the latest statement on WTC1 and 2 collapse propagaion is BLGB and crush down, then crush up written in 2008.

Seffen seems to believe in waves of destruction leading the collapse front. That was, I guess, the chief contending theory.

The true collapse mechanisms of the WTC twin towers have never been identified outside of internet forums.

Our underatanding is probably about 5 years ahead of all published literature on the true collapse mechanisms of both towers.



Instead, on forums like this the sheepish habit is to praise all things academic like little fawning boys and girls.

The WTC Twin Towers Collapse Dynamics presented in this thread is the only full record of WTC global collapse mechanics available on the planet.

This is a fact. If you found a more accurate description somewhere else, please post it.
 
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I posted a collapse initiation model for WTC2 and the thread was basically destroyed while destroying the WTC1 thread I posted earlier.

I knew that would happen and that is why I posted a few warnings before beginning the thread. I knew that it would not only be destroyed, but the WTC1 thread would be turned into a meatball sandwich.

This was done because I apparently "started a thread in the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories sub-forum but it does not appear to be related to any 9/11 Conspiracy Theory".

This is the exact logic employed to destroy both of my threads.

The exact same reasoning can be applied to this thread. The same reasoning to the femr thread on data.

If you cannot see your own hypocrisy in using falsified data to describe the WTC1 initial column failure sequence or in using a falsified crush down, then crush up model to describe global movement, then there is nothing else I can do to penetrate the thick fog of your own delusive slumbers.

All I can do is hold up the mirror. I can't make you look into it.
 
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As clearly explained, I have followed a basic posting method since the OP in this thread based on a 3 stage process:


My debate strategy is pretty clear. I have been following this general pattern:



a) First, Introduce a correct collapse propagation theory. Clear up many misunderstandings of all parties in the "debate". Misunderstandings by AE911T, by many regular JREF posters, by STJ911, by Bazant.

Knowledge and observation of the ROOSD process allow us to be specific when "debating" unlike any time previously.

Both self-proclaimed "debunkers" and "truthers" have helped spread many tall tales. The current atmosphere is thick with poor interpretation of photographic evidence. "The debate" is 95% hot air and fantasy. Knowledge of the ROOSD process destroys many of those illusions, allowing us to talk about specific features of collapse with a common underlying understanding for the first time.



b) Second, destroy the most common illusions that put a stranglehold on true, honest debate. For regular posters at JREF, this illusion is that some accepted authority has provided convincing answers to the demolition question.

The heart of this belief in such scientific authority is an attachment to the claims of "proof" by Dr Bazant and the NIST. Many posters are convinced that mechanisms of collapse of all three towers have been identified.

This is totally untrue. The collapses of all three towers remain a total mystery, and no scientific authority has come close to solving or explaining the mystery.


This is a fact that many here will fight to deny: The true causes for the collapses of all 3 towers remains unknown. In reality, the NIST was not able to identify the causes of any of the collapses.

No mechanism of collapse has yet been correctly identified


Speaking of illusions, to be fair, many claims by 9/11 truth groups are verifiably incorrect and these illusions must also be destroyed. The researchers that I feel have contributed most to 9/11 resreach have been largely ignored by the mainstream 9/11 truth movement. This is because many false claims have been made by AE911T, for example, and the researchers mentioned can probably call their bluff on those false claims. Unfortunately, the tendency of AE911T, for example, has been to shelter itself from honest debate with other truthers such as myself. Not healthy.



c) Once illusions have lost their power to dominate the scope of the "debate", and people overcome the tendency to cite abstract authority as decisive "proof", Free of the stranglehold of illusions, we will debate collapse features more clearly and specifically, maybe for the first time.


All features worth considering will be presented as comprehensive lists of information. We will find that a knowledge of the ROOSD process will give us a much better ability to see the collapse processes as a whole. We will also notice that many subtle features are seemingly inexplicable even with a knowledge of ROOSD.

From my experience, the more I have studied subtle features of the initiation processes and collapses, the more mysterious the events become.

There are many curious features that most people have not noticed about the actual events, mainly because they are looking for big bombs, or tons and tons of TNT, or space beams, or nukes......or pyroclastic clouds, or rivers and streams of molten metal....

If you know about the possibility of a ROOSD process, then you have a great advantage in knowing where to look for curious features of the collapses of WTC1 and 2. It's a great help. There are certain areas that cause natural discontinuities for the ROOSD process, like mechanical room floors, for example, that the observant researcher will want to study in detail.


The very first item on the list is a clear understanding of the ROOSD mechanism and perimeter dropping.

We can all see that, truther or debunker, if you do not have a grasp of the collapse mechanics you are debating in a dream world.

I know that many of you feel warmer and safer in a dream world, but if you do not have a grasp of global mass flow how could you possibly make sense of the visual record?

It is impossible to have a debate beyond the Jabberwocky level without this knowledge.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The "debate" exists perpetually in false theories and illusion. You have probably never experienced a real on collapse mechanics and CD debate before because you believed in crap like this:



R Mackey understanding of the collapse progression process, 8-25-2010:

Think of it in terms of impulse -- the total change of momentum at a particular impact. Impulse is equal and opposite, by conservation of momentum. Impulse is equal to F delta-T (force times the time over which the force is applied), or M delta-V (the raw change of momentum in its familiar definition P = m V).

When we look at the "upper block," it's delta-V is smaller than the delta-V experienced by the newly broken part of the lower block. As you say, the upper block decelerates by an average 1/3 g, while the lower block accelerates by an average 2/3 g. This is because the participating part of the lower block masses less than the participating part of the upper block -- it really is the compacted mass and upper block versus a small number of floors at a time, not the entire lower block.

The reason only part of the lower block participates at any given time is because the lower block is still a mostly intact sparse structure of braced columns. When it's hit, the columns lose bracing, get loaded eccentrically, shear their welds and bolts, and in some cases are totally overwhelmed and fracture entirely. These pieces break at a stress much too low to actually support the descending mass. This also has nothing to do with the strength of the perfectly intact building -- the descending rubble heap isn't contacting the lower structure at its strongest points, and it's introducing brand new failure modes, so the effective opposing strength of the lower structure is far lower than its ideal carrying capacity. Furthermore, where the lower structure does resist at or near its ideal strength, it can only do so for a very brief delta-T -- until reaching its failure strain, which takes only about ten milliseconds at the speeds of collapse -- and this is not enough to amount to all that much total impulse.

The upper chunk, in contrast, is cushioned by a thick layer of rubble. This is compacted about as far as it can, thus it doesn't have those complex failure modes and it doesn't suffer much more "damage" even at much higher stresses. So the rubble pile remains, and the lower structure gives way. This is for the same reason you don't sink into the ground, even though you can push your finger easily through a cupful of soil.

The "upper block," what remains of it, rides on top of this cushion of debris. It is supported pretty well. It also only decelerates at that lower rate, thanks to the much greater inertia of the upper block + debris. So the only real force it suffers is the inertial force, i.e. its own self-weight times its deceleration, again about 1/3 g. It can be expected to survive this deceleration. It's only when the rubble pile has nowhere else to go and the upper block has to suddenly stop, dissipating all of its momentum in mere milliseconds, that it totally fails.

Again, this is slightly idealized, but you get the point. Unless you're a Truther.


Describing the Bazant crush down, then crush up process. He has no understanding whatsoever of the collapse dynamics.

Crap like this leads to things like a "piston-fart" theory.

Your debate with no knowledge of global mass flow:

hamster_wheel.jpg


That is what you do on JREF.
 
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The only academic papers on the mechanism of collapse progression for WTC1 and 2 are:

Bazant, Zhao: Why did WTC Collapse

Bazant, Verdure: Progressive Collapse Mechanics

Bazant, Le: Closure to Collapse Mechanics

Bazant-Le-Greening-Benson..:WTC Collapse

Keith Seffen: Progressive Collapse
I don't see FEMA's report there. Certainly it doesn't focus on the mechanism of collapse progression, but their description seems fairly accurate.

I think I've copied it now several times in this thread.
 
Describing the Bazant crush down, then crush up process. He has no understanding whatsoever of the collapse dynamics.
Wrong. You either have no understanding whatsoever on the context of the quoted text, or ignore it deliberately. Mackey is explaining to alexi_drago the theory behind Bazant's model, which is what the discussions is about. Face it, the rest of the world doesn't discuss what you want them to discuss.
 
Awesome. By whom ? Nostradamus ?

Please provide links. If you do and there is no mention of WTC 1 or 2, or no mention of composite floor system runaway destruction mechanisms within a skyscraper with a tube-in-tube design, I'll be a little dissapointed in Nostradamus/whomever...

On the other hand, if you DO find such a previous study, prior to 2001... hello mister insurance company...

As far as Ronan Point's concerned it was a hilight of inadequate design that raised concerns over certain constructions and their susceptibility to the same kind of progressive failure mechanisms. I think Ronan point's perfectly acceptable as an analogy - that is; providing the comparison is made with a very specific context in mind and those contexts are limited to the appropriate range of applicability. Design vulnerabilities would be valid as a discussion point for example.

As far as the relevance to the WTC, I'd only compare Ronan point as a case example of what happens in progressive collapse. It's fairly rare to begin with, and Ronan point shows that under certain conditions it happens. The problem is that in many discussions with truth movement members even Ronan Point as a very generic case study is rejected, mostly because in their eyes progressive failures don't happen at all.
 
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aka pancaking?
Which are you having issues with? The pancake theory proposed by FEMA's initial investigation? Or the "pan-caking" referred to by others during collapse progression? I ask because many of the NIST critiques I see from the mainstream truthers, and the "alternates" tend to conflate the two. I'd like to know since any answer I'd offer depends specifically on what your criticism is.
 
A review of the FEMA study:



From FEMA 403 Ch 2, pg 2-27

FEMA on WTC1, 2002:

2.2.1.5 Progression of Collapse

Construction of WTC 1 resulted in the storage of more than 4x1011 joules of potential energy over the 1,368-foot height of the structure. Of this, approximately 8x109 joules of potential energy were stored in the upper part of the structure, above the impact floors, relative to the lowest point of impact. Once collapse initiated, much of this potential energy was rapidly converted into kinetic energy. As the large mass of the collapsing floors above accelerated and impacted on the floors below, it caused an immediate progressive series of floor failures, punching each in turn onto the floor below, accelerating as the sequence progressed. As the floors collapsed, this left tall freestanding portions of the exterior wall and possibly central core columns. As the unsupported height of these freestanding exterior wall elements increased, they buckled at the bolted column splice connections, and also collapsed. Perimeter walls of the building seem to have peeled off and fallen directly away from the building face, while portions of the core fell in a somewhat random manner. The perimeter walls broke apart at the bolted connections, allowing individual prefabricated units that formed the wall or, in some cases, large assemblies of these units to fall to the street and onto neighboring buildings below.

Review of videotape recordings of the collapse taken from various angles indicates that the transmission tower on top of the structure began to move downward and laterally slightly before movement was evident at the exterior wall. This suggests that collapse began with one or more failures in the central core area of the building. This is consistent with the observations of debris patterns from the 91st floor, previously discussed. This is also supported by preliminary evaluation of the load carrying capacity of these columns, discussed in more detail in Section 2.2.2.2. The core columns were not designed to resist wind loads and, therefore, had less reserve capacity than perimeter columns. As some exterior and core columns were damaged by the aircraft impact, the outrigger trusses at the top of the building shifted additional loads to the remaining core columns, further eroding the available factor of safety. This would have been particularly significant in the upper portion of the damaged building. In this region, the original design load for the core columns was less than at lower floors, and the column sections were relatively light. The increased stresses caused by the aircraft impact could easily have brought several of these columns close to their ultimate capacity, so that relatively little additional effects due to fire would have been required to initiate the collapse. Once movement began, the entire portion of the building above the area of impact fell in a unit, pushing a cushion of air below it. As this cushion of air pushed through the impact area, the fires were fed by new oxygen and pushed outward, creating the illusion of a secondary explosion.



Who discovered the first early movement in the antenna?

It was either before 2002 or FEMA, according to the FEMA Building Study.


FEMA 2002 concept of WTC1 collapse initiation:


fema1.jpg


FEMA2.jpg



The (in)famous early "pancaking" theory.


FEMA on the WTC2 collapse initiation and progression:



2.2.2.5 Initiation of Collapse

The same types of structural behaviours and failure mechanisms previously discussed are equally likely to have occurred in WTC2, resulting in the initiation of progressive collapse, approximately 56 minutes after the aircraft impact. Review of video footage of the WTC2 collapse suggests that it probably initiated with a partial collapse of the floor in the southeast corner of the building at approximately the 80th level. This appears to have been followed rapidly by collapse of the entire floor level along the east side, as evidenced by a line of dust blowing out of the side of the building. As this floor collapse occurred, columns along the east face of the building appear to buckle in the region of the collapsed floor, beginning at the south side and progressing to the north, causing the top of the building to rotate toward the east and south and to begin to collapse downward (Figure 2-32). It should be noted that failure of core columns in the southeast corner of the building could have preceded and triggered these events.

They are describing the 78th fl row of ejections in bold. The earliest movement is a pull-in of the 81st and 82nd fl spandrel plates.


2.2.2.6 Progression of Collapse

As in WTC1, a very large quantity of potential energy was stored in the building, during its construction. Once collapse initiated, much of this energy was rapidly released and converted into kinetic energy, in the form of the rapidly accelerating mass of the structure above the aircraft inpact zone. The impact of this rapidly moving mass on the lower structure caused a wide range of structural failures in the floors directly at and below the aircraft inpact zone, in turn causing failure of these floors. As additional floor plates failed, the mass associated with each of these floors joined that of the tower above the impact area, increasing the destructive energy on the floors immediately below. This initiated a chain of progressive failures that resulted in the total collapse of the building.

A review of aerial photographs of the site, following the collapse, as well as identification of pieces of structural steel from WTC2, strongly suggests that while the top portion of the tower fell to the south and east, striking Liberty Street and the Bankers Trust building, the lower portion of the tower fell to the north and west, striking the Marriot Hotel (WTC3). Again, the debris pattern spread laterally as far as approxinately 400-500 feet from the base of the structure.

Incorrect but not too shabby for a general description in 2002.


The NIST did not agree with the FEMA observations on the "how and why" of collapse initiation.

NIST in their own words in 2006:

NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower.

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
(bolding added)

It is interesting to note that FEMA believed the WTC1 core failed and noted early antenna movement as evidence.

The NIST disagreed and never mentioned the NIST observation of early WTC! antenna movement in their report.

When we pointed out the exact same early antenna movement in 2010 on this forum, we were treated to months of insults and abuse.


FEMA also considered early core failure to the the probable cause of WTC2 collapse initiation. I was going to show you evidence of this on the WTC2 thread but the thread was basically destroyed.

You currently believe in some silly sagging floor truss theory a la NIST. This can be shown to be absurd by looking carefully at observables, but that type of study apparently isn't sufficiently conspiracy related for this forum.
 
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You currently believe in some silly sagging floor truss theory a la NIST. This can be shown to be absurd by looking carefully at observables, but that type of study apparently isn't sufficiently conspiracy related for this forum.
Usually what happens is the mainstream "truth movement" thinks the NIST's conclusions are based on the FEMA investigation's findings when they're two distinct and major differences. The FEMA investigation - as the excerpt you posted indicates - posits that the floor systems failed progressively leaving the core and perimeter columns with long unbraced sections making them very susceptible to failure via instability. THis is a collapse initiation mechanism they hypothesized.

The "pancake theory" that exists with respect to NISTs' conclusions is in collapse progression, where the collapse began the floors and perimeter columns failed in rapid succession. This progressed down the building heights, bypassing much of the core below the impact regions since it was the connections to the core that failed first. Haven't read enough of the report to know if they specifically went into this part, but it's clear from the visual documentation that this is the kind of progressive failure that took place whether NIST went into it in-depth or not.* And their disagreement with FEMA's Pancake theory isn't particularly relevant to the version that deals with the way the collapse behaved after initiation.

*I know NIST didn't model collapse progression, I'm talking about whether they mention pancaking after the collapse began


If femr2 has a problem with me thinking Ronan Point is relevant, then I hope this can clear up why and to what extent I find it a relevant case study. I'm more than willing to explain further if he wants.

As for your response, many thanks for posting a comparison between FEMA's and NISTs' responses to this one. But I still find that your confusing the specific disagreement point between the two on this specific topic.
 
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As far as Ronan Point's concerned it was a hilight of inadequate design that raised concerns over certain constructions and their susceptibility to the same kind of progressive failure mechanisms. I think Ronan point's perfectly acceptable as an analogy - that is; providing the comparison is made with a very specific context in mind and those contexts are limited to the appropriate range of applicability. Design vulnerabilities would be valid as a discussion point for example.

As far as the relevance to the WTC, I'd only compare Ronan point as a case example of what happens in progressive collapse. It's fairly rare to begin with, and Ronan point shows that under certain conditions it happens. The problem is that in many discussions with truth movement members even Ronan Point as a very generic case study is rejected, mostly because in their eyes progressive failures don't happen at all.
I clearly have no issue with self-sustaining propogation having had somewhat to do with the identification and extraction of visual information which confirms the quite precise ROOSD behaviour.

What I do have a problem with, as I think you have clocked, are statements such as...
Comparing Ronan point to the WTC is not like comparing apples and oranges, it's comparing apples to apples. What you seem to want is the equivalent of an in-depth study of a Washington Red apple being turned into applesauce when all that's really necessary is a general description of any apple getting turned into apple sauce. While there may be some minor differences the gross outcome is the same for both.
:eye-poppi

...and...

NIST didn't need to reinvent the wheel. Once the initiation phase had completed there were already previous studies as to what happened.

To use the partial Ronan Point event as the reason to not study the actual behaviour of WTC1/2 progression is, imo, absurd.

To suggest "While there may be some minor differences the gross outcome is the same for both." is pretty mind-boggling.

There were years worth of varying *theories* of how progression *worked*, and pretty much all wrong. No need to look beyond Ronan Point ? Ew.

(Not directed at you btw)
 
When will all this come out and set a new investigation in train? It's been ten years now,the truth movement must be the slowest movement on Earth.
 
Usually what happens is the mainstream "truth movement" thinks the NIST's conclusions are based on the FEMA investigation's findings when they're two distinct and major differences. The FEMA investigation - as the excerpt you posted indicates - posits that the floor systems failed progressively leaving the core and perimeter columns with long unbraced sections making them very susceptible to failure via instability. THis is a collapse initiation mechanism they hypothesized.

The "pancake theory" that exists with respect to NISTs' conclusions is in collapse progression, where the collapse began the floors and perimeter columns failed in rapid succession. This progressed down the building heights, bypassing much of the core below the impact regions since it was the connections to the core that failed first. Haven't read enough of the report to know if they specifically went into this part, but it's clear from the visual documentation that this is the kind of progressive failure that took place whether NIST went into it in-depth or not.* And their disagreement with FEMA's Pancake theory isn't particularly relevant to the version that deals with the way the collapse behaved after initiation.

*I know NIST didn't model collapse progression, I'm talking about whether they mentaion pancaking after the collapse began


If femr2 has a problem with me thinking Ronan Point is relevant, then I hope this can clear up why and to what extent I find it a relevant case study. I'm more than willing to explain further if he wants.

As for your response, many thanks for posting a comparison between FEMA's and NISTs' responses to this one. But I still find that your confusion the specific disagreement point between the two on this specific topic.




The WTC Twin Towers Collapse Dynamics presented in this thread is the only full record of WTC global collapse mechanics available on the planet.

This is a fact. If you found a more accurate description somewhere else, please post it.


SInce my other threads have been destroyed, let us start from the basics on this one and begin here.

Besides the couple of FEMA quotes posted in 2002, is there any other academic or professional paper which identifies the true collapse progression mechanics like the WTC Collapse Dynamics posted?

The highest academic statements on WTC collapse progression to date are from Bazant and Seffen, no? Some crap about crush down, then crush up and a "fracture wave". Anything else?

That is the best you got?
 
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SInce my other threads have been destroyed, let us start from the basics on this one and begin here.

Besides the couple of FEMA quotes posted in 2002, is there any other academic or professional paper which identifies the true collapse progression mechanics like the WTC Collapse Dynamics posted?

The highest academic statements on WTC collapse progression to date are from Bazant and Seffen, no? Some crap about crush down, then crush up and a "fracture wave". Anything else?

That is the best you got?
I missed the numbers (you know "engineering" stuff). Could you point us to that part of your white paper*?

Thanks


* I feel generous today (being the end of the world in all :D)
 
Major Tom's First Principle of WTC Study:

If you discuss the possibility of demolition of WTC1 or 2 without knowing anything about global mass flow within the buildings (ROOSD) or collapse mechanics, you are running on one of these:

hamster_wheel.jpg




How can this be tested? Many examples everywhere we look. It is all around us. It pervades this forum and much of the AE911T website.


All living examples of the principle:

Richard Gage and R Mackey
Bazant and Heiwa
Newton's Bit and Gordon Ross

(strange how they show up in pairs)

David Chandler lives and breathes this principle

Once the general mass flow and photographic record are ignored, fantasy rules with no constraint.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


How can a person hop off the hamster wheel and progress? Discover and record a collapse mechanism that matches all observables.

Well, the visual mapping of all 4 perimeter walls and ROOSD flow was already done. Can anyone link to a better description of the collapse progression WTC1 or 2?

If not, consider jumping off the wheel and let us address the most serious questions of collapse initiation.

(Oops! Can't. The appropriate threads have been effectively destroyed.)
 
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When will all this come out and set a new investigation in train? It's been ten years now,the truth movement must be the slowest movement on Earth.
Have you timed femr2's no-known-relationship-to-the-truth-movement?

As Major_Tom has "clearly explained", this thread is at least the second of who knows how many threads Major_Tom will dedicate to just the second part of his three-stage debate strategy. Until Major_Tom achieves that second objective, which is to "destroy the most common illusions that put a stranglehold on true, honest debate", he won't be able to "debate collapse features more clearly and specifically, maybe for the first time."

If Major_Tom were to rush headlong into that honest debate, he would get ahead of femr2 and lose their contest to see whose movement can move the slowest.
 
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