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OOS Collapse Propagation Model

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I think the ROOSD by whatever name you want is a good description and helpful in understand the collapse phase... not the LIMIT case and crush up crush down nonsense.

Is ROOSD something that ANY building can experience or only OOS column free ones? Or OOS column free ones with light weight trusses? Or maybe ANY steel frame? These are questions NIST should have answered. I think.

Help a blockhead out, here. If ROOSD has been so helpful in understanding the collapse phase and you don't trust all that theory and math nonsense, shouldn't you be answering those questions?
 
For sure we can't see inside the tower to know what is going on. We can only see what is coming out and where... smoke.. and different colored smoke perhaps. We can see some facade damage, the IB and the antenna motion and the flames on various floors. So there is not much to work with aside from the structural information about the building and the contents on the floors (if known).

We do know from empirical tests how building materials perform under heat stress. We don't know how much jet fuel burned inside, where it burned and what else burned. We can make educated guesses. The same goes for the loss of fire proofing on structural members. We can't know how much was lost or where it was lost or even HOW it was lost. BANG it falls off? Maybe.

I find it very "humorous" that with respect to 7wtc... we are told by NIST that heat caused beam and girder explansion and "distortion"... ie lateral movement or distortion of the frame. These were very ROBUST steel sections that "warped".

Yet when it comes to the twin towers NIST didn't bother with the bracing beams of the core "warping" from heat and possibly (probably?... maybe?) destroying the integrity of the twin tower cores.

Of course one would have to consider that some lateral RESTRAINT had been removed in the plane strike zones when the core columns were severed. Into this zone of no restraint... the frame could possibly (probably??? maybe???) be pushed. And if that was a "process"/"mechanism" it would lead to column end mis alignment and loss of aggregate capacity of the core.... local column "loss".. and probably/possible? local floor collapses within the core.

Do we even understand what would happen to the 4 36' columns above the severed columns? Do thy just hang there? Held by the slab and the bracing beams? or do they drop and break away at the hat truss? Do the floor areas around those columns fracture and break free and drop? Or just "sag"?

The top drop took 1.5 hrs or so... what was the process going on which was "eroding capacity"? Surely it was a progressive loss of capacity... Was it column weakening from heat? or column misalignment from heat? or both? How does heat mis align a column?

Did the facade lose capacity from heating? If the core was not terribly compromised would the facade buckle, the floors collapse with it leaving the core standing?

Doesn't the sagging truss narrative imply an reasonably sound core? Were the upper core columns dragged along with the floors and the collapsing facade... ie the top was most "intact" and dropped. Wouldn't that mean all the coupled core columns would show obvious buckling in the debris... something like 40 buckled core columns from the strike zone?

Go for it!

If you lay a prospective grid over the pictures in the videos, you can see the motion and measure movements a lot better especially in 3d.

There is movement that would not be apparent to the human eye with out a way to detect it.

The images suggest the whole building is shaking, as the antenna moves.
 
Help a blockhead out, here. If ROOSD has been so helpful in understanding the collapse phase and you don't trust all that theory and math nonsense, shouldn't you be answering those questions?

Theory and math is not nonsense per se. But if needs to be applied on a level that is not being looked at... or as I would assert...

The math related to ROOSD is pretty trivial.... you present an enormous dynamic load to a 4 1/2" concrete slab and it's destroyed lickity split. Isn't this settled engineering and material science?

You try to stack 36' tall columns end to end.... 20 tall and lo and behold... they can't stand! Or you need guys... Isn't that settled engineering?

You think we need to "do the maths" for "ROOSD"

Do the maths and give us a theory of how hear made the top drops... Be a bit specific. The answer is not unfought fires and a plane knocking out 6 core columns and section of the north facade.

Go for it... do the maths!

Don't ask me to answer these questions... I am looking for wiser people to help me understand.
 
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If you lay a prospective grid over the pictures in the videos, you can see the motion and measure movements a lot better especially in 3d.

There is movement that would not be apparent to the human eye with out a way to detect it.

The images suggest the whole building is shaking, as the antenna moves.

maybe... how do you know the camera is not shaking?

How do you suppose the antenna is making the entire building vibrate? I am not denying it.... just asking.
 
The math related to ROOSD is pretty trivial.... you present an enormous dynamic load to a 4 1/2" concrete slab and it's destroyed lickity split. Isn't this settled engineering and material science?

Well, "enormous dynamic load to a 4 1/2" concrete slab" isn't exactly math, but it seems to me you should be on the right track to answering you own questions about ROOSD. Then, maybe we can revisit why that OOS is in the middle of the acronym.
 
Well, "enormous dynamic load to a 4 1/2" concrete slab" isn't exactly math, but it seems to me you should be on the right track to answering you own questions about ROOSD. Then, maybe we can revisit why that OOS is in the middle of the acronym.

I have no issues with ROOSD... (I came on that explanation myself before I joined 911 FF in March or so 2010.) nor the engineering of floor failure. I don't know boo about the communition of the concrete into sand and "dust"... but it seems like a reasonable outcome for what was going on inside the tube after 100 or so major floor impacts.

The only thing I am after is how the tops going moving and if they were gutted on the inside and so forth... the so called "initiation".

If there is math for that... show me!
 
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And you've yet to provide any evidence, once again. You haven't even shown what kind of system would actually arrest a total collapse of an occupied skyscraper. FFS, that's not even possible!

It is possible to build a mechanical floor with a mass deversion system that could shed, a falling mass the problem is the weight, the restricted access, and the cost.
I built a model of such a device.
 
There appears to be at this date, at least a general consensus that the floors both inside and outside the cores collapsed / were destroyed and by passed the columns which toppled from Euler instability. Column strength had nothing to do with the floor collapse nor could column strength prevent or arrest a runaway floor collapse.

Among posters at a couple of forums, yes. Within the written record there is no evidence such consensus has ever or will ever be reached.



There is no consensus about how the collapse initiated other than the notion that if the top section fell the columns had to have failed and were likely misaligned caused by some yet to be agreed upon mechanism.

As strange as that sounds, it appears to be true. According to the written record the only apparent 'consensus' that was ever reached is contradicted by the visual record of collapse events.

But your strange but true statement isn't merely true 'to this date'. It appears to be a permanent state that most probably will not change in the future.



In 1wtc before the top shows visible downward motion the antenna begins to sink into the structure and tip and there is a section or the SE facade which appears to buckle /move/bow inward.

+++++

INITIATION

It appears (please correct) that the IB of the south facade extends from the SE corner about 10 columns (300-310) then there are a few column not buckled and then perhaps more columns to the West that are buckled.... clearly lots of black charring on the floor all the way from east to west.

Is it possible for a 30+ foot section of the facade to bow without the building's steel frame being warped? Or were these facade columns simply pulled in and the rest of the facade and core frame remained "true"?

NIST's plate showing the bowing indicates the maximum bowing occurred at the face below where the hat truss outrigger is bearing (~ column 310) which is aligned with the east row of the core's perimeter.

The floor trusses from corner of the belt girder at column 310 to the SE corner columns 300 and 259 were bearing on an e-w transfer truss girder from bthe belt girder at core column 1000 to facade columns 243... which also was directly below am E-W hat truss outrigger.

It appears that the IB on the east side of the south face was a result of the hat truss losing bearing on the north side of the core at row 500, some at 600. This presented increased loads to the south side of the core via the hat truss perhaps leading to the buckling of col 1008 leading to the drop of the belt girder on the SE side of the core which may have exerted a lateral SE impulse to the belt girder structure and floor plates pulling the core perimeter columns to the SE misaligning them and leading to the top to drop and the progress floor collapse we agree to call GrandMa (;-))

It seems as if the top drop and collapse was not caused by the floor trusses in the SE corner pulling the facade in.



There is no other way to approach this issue other than by using an accurate and detailed visual record of the collapse initiation events. It can be easily verified that no such record exists except on an obscure website put together by a few independent anonymous researchers working for free. Another strange but true fact.


These are the observable events leading into the collapse initiation sequence of WTC1 in order:



1) Deformations: Inward bowing of the south face
2) Earliest detectable creep movement of the antenna and northwest corner
3) Appearance of ~87th fl S face ejections
4) Appearance of 95th fl W face ejection
5) Visible downward movement begins: Concave deformation of the roofline, antenna drops before north or west perimeter walls
6) Columns fail over tilt of less than 1 degree, appearance of 98th fl ejections and 105th floor ejections
7) Appearance of 77th fl W face ejections
8 ) Splitting of all perimeter walls: All visible upper parts fall out and over lower parts
9 ) Southward sliding of upper portion
10 ) Dis-integration of upper portion


What people see as the beginning of visible downward movement is marked blue.


The NIST noticed the inward bowing but they didn't notice the early antenna movement, the 87th floor ejections, or the 95th floor ejections. They also didn't notice the failure of all columns over a tilt angle of less than 1 degree. So there most probably never will be any consensus over how the collapses of either WTC1 or WTC2 initiated based on accurate sets of observations.
 
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The only thing I am after is how the tops going moving and if they were gutted on the inside and so forth... the so called "initiation".

If there is math for that... show me!

Initiation is really off topic here, but if you don't trust NIST's FEA or their narrative, I guess you'll have to do your own. Please do keep us informed if you find anything interesting.
 
Ozzie seems to want to explain the event to the clueless... and to disabuse the clever of some mishguided notions. Noble that is.
Near enough Sander. My motivation is certainly "explaining" those things which are within my range of expertise. But not for the "clueless" - my target audience is persons who are genuinely interested and prepared to enter into honest reasoned discussion.

And - for discussion of these WTC engineering forensic matters - that means someone with reasoning skills of at least high school level and with an aptitude for physics. There just too much ground work missing if the audience does not have at least modest reasoning skills. And I quickly disengage when the person demonstrates dishonest intent. I'm slightly more patient with those whose reasoning skills are genuinely limited but it is a waste of time attempting reasoning with those who either cannot or pretend they cannot reason.
 
Initiation is really off topic here, but if you don't trust NIST's FEA or their narrative, I guess you'll have to do your own. Please do keep us informed if you find anything interesting.

I did propose... not "find" because no one can see inside... including NIST. Whatever the mechanisms that were in play post plane strike until top drop was basically a "heat driven" process. EXPANSION and lateral displacement of column end to end connections.

I have my doubts about fire weakening 41 core columns more or less driving their aggregate capacity below service loads and NOT messing up the much smaller bracing steel sections... which were "above the flames"... Seems to me that flames would more likely "cook" the braces and the slabs in the core than the columns... whatever "cooking" would do.... probably expand the bracing.

I think we know what happens to steel as it heats up. In fact, NIST told us that heated beams pushed a girder 5 or 6 inches in 7 WTC. Why would the same thing not be in play in 1wtc's core?

The answer is of course... It would!

But of course as in the 7wtc example the ....to push.... means something pushed can MOVE ie is unrestrained. And if you could push a column end way less than 5" you could pretty much turn that column line to non performing. A 1" displacement in each axis would reduce the bearing area of column 704 up there... to 3%. That's well in the insufficient bearing area and well before that it would cause web and or flange crippling.

NB the pushing was not at the column to column connections... it was several feet away... above and below where the bracing (and floors) was. UNRESTRAINED END TO END CONNECTIONS with some 1/2" steel splice plates.

If that pushing happened to a column... at floor 96 for example.. there are still 4 - 36' columns above it that are carrying. 3 floors each. With nothing to bear on.... those 4 columns are going to ... without bearing (resistance) begin to drop.. held only by the floors that they HAD been supporting... held by the column end spliced connections which were not designed as hangers... and pulling down on the hat truss which the column had previously been supporting. OOOPS

Would the 4 columns break free at the hat truss? Who knows? Would the slabs around the unsupported column slump down with the unsupported column? (seems so no?) Would the slabs fracture and break free themselves (locally)? Can the hat truss span the new gap which was previously being supported by a column?

But why should only 1 column be displaced from being pushed by expanding braces? It is surrounded by as many as 8 others

x y x
y o y
x y x

The Y's can now move toward the missing / failed and perhaps "dropped" column location O because the fire was widespread and likely cooking up a large amount of the core area on say flr 96.

Well you can see where this is "going"... as long as the heating persists and there is no restraint on one side of the bracing... it expands in that direction and PUSHES... (the columns off alignment)

soon you will have:

x x y x x
x y o y x
y o o o y
x y o y x
x x y x x

5 failed columns ....hangers (o) with damaged slabs.... 8 "exposed" vulnerable to motion (y)

If this mechanism was in play the non performing columns could grow in number

from 1 to 5 to 13... plus the 6 plane destroyed columns and you have 19 of the 47 columns of the center of the core non performing.

Our hat truss is now sweating bullets. It wasn't supposed to be a bridge SPANNING the core was it? It was supposed to spread the antenna loads to more than the 3 columns it was built over. Clever wasn't that? And it provided a nice rigid end plate to join the core and the facade tube at the top. That region was quite robust being 3 stories of mech equipment, tanks, transmitters and so forth.

It seems pretty clear that the "hollowing out" of the core capacity was in the center under the antenna... and lo and behold... this was the first region where the hat truss completely collapsed... and the antenna dropped... with no axial support and the truss "spreading" loads radially from it... right over the "hollowed out core".

++++

It should be noted that the hat truss was working very hard from the moment the plane bashed in the facade and took out 6 core columns (503, 504, 505, 506, 604, & 605). It immediately was "out of balance"... like trying to stand on one leg and carrying a heavy suitcase...Your muscles are trying to move all the load to your one leg on the floor. In the wtc cast the one leg was all the remaining bearing locations for the MAIN trusses... there were 8 of them.

The first core columns to fail during the initiation from "frame heat distortion" were 603, 606, 704, & 705. Now we have 10 of the 47 core columns non performing.

The next sequence of the progression took out columns 703, 706, 803, 804 and perhaps 605 and 607... Now we are up to perhaps 16 non performing columns... 1/3 of the core.. YIKES

The next sequence of failures would be 702, 707, 802, 805, 903, 914, 905. We have now 23 of the core non performing and all the columns below the antenna. 1/2 the core is non performing. We need over 100% reserve capacity to stand. (average reserve capacity for steel frames is under 49% or similar.

THIS is the moment of release... Row 10 is seeing most of the loads from above along with the core perimeter on the east and west side.

The facade damage was more to the West when the plane hit and the opposite side... east on the south facade saw the most increased loads and buckled first as the south side columns saw a rapid momentary load increase leading to buckling and then the entire core structure folded... the antenna dropped inside and the facade shifted and came down no longer in axial alignment with the bottom. The lateral force exerted via the moving slab was so much that facade columns sheared in mid span in some cases and dropped. At the release level facade columns sprung off when they were sheared and some slipped and dropped straight down.

Something like that?

It's a theory anyway... since you asked.... (and MT didn't whisper in my ear)
 

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Well... you can see I am a dumb architect who draws pictures and doesn't do maths ( ;-0)... that's why we hire engineers as consultants... They often can't visualize and are good at math ;-)... So here is the opportunity...

Do the maths ;-)
 
Well... you can see I am a dumb architect who draws pictures and doesn't do maths ( ;-0)... that's why we hire engineers as consultants... They often can't visualize....
clap.gif
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Oh so true. So often true. And 3D visualising should be a basic skill for structural engineers.

and are good at math ;-)...
So they do the maths or the FEA BEFORE they have worked out what they are talking about.

That "first post" I made on the Internet:
me on another forum said:
The paper referenced as Engineering Reality by Tony Szamboti is typical of many which look impressive in detail to the non-engineer. The complex calculations may even be correct but the base premises are faulty and the resulting conclusions can readily be demonstrated to be totally wrong.
And it's not only truthers who fall for the trap.

So here is the opportunity...

Do the maths ;-)
BUT not before you know what you are mathifying or FEAing. :o


:runaway
 
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Ozzie...
Well let's see if anyone wants to tackle the mechanisms of collapse initiation. Although the concepts of truss sagging and girder walk off may not make sense of any number or reasons... or maybe they DO... NIST at least tried to turn a concept into one which a math/engineering/material science basis. They were both sort of very micro focused theories but they were isolated and seemed to, in the case, of the twin towers to be detached from the observations/reality to some extent. For example if the collapses were basically truss pull in of the facade... 2wtc initiation should have been more similar to tower 1's The big tilt in 2 seems to suggest more core involvement as the driver than their sagging truss theory would indicate.

But let's not go there. Let's try to find the mechanisms of a core driven collapse and make them work for the 2 different scenarios that resulted in virtually the same global collapse mechanisms.

Of course my narrative above was speculation. There will be no other way to do this because non one has actual data... The Challenger disaster was sort of similar but there was more data because it was temp pre launch that sealed the fate. And it was in a sense an sub system failure which someone could conceptualize and then... do the maths. I don't recall if there was a "temperature" driven spec for the launch window... because of the o ring sub system. But obviously there should have been and for some reason this "spec" slipped by... perhaps by mission control staff not familiar with the issue (in advance). The engineers will argue that the design was perfectly OK if the launch parameters were met... at least with respect to THAT o ring failure mode. And they would be correct!

So again, let's not make this into a hunt for "legal" liability but one to understand if the design had elements which drove the mechanisms of its fate.
 
The Challenger disaster was sort of similar but there was more data because it was temp pre launch that sealed the fate. And it was in a sense an sub system failure which someone could conceptualize and then... do the maths. I don't recall if there was a "temperature" driven spec for the launch window... because of the o ring sub system. But obviously there should have been and for some reason this "spec" slipped by... perhaps by mission control staff not familiar with the issue (in advance). The engineers will argue that the design was perfectly OK if the launch parameters were met... at least with respect to THAT o ring failure mode. And they would be correct!


There was an historic rewrite in the case of the Challenger disaster. One version is that a chief engineer had a showdown with management just before launching and refused to sign off on the decision to launch. Management overruled them and....


Take a look at the second video at this link to see the revised technical analysis of the cause of the disaster.


But I can pretty much guarantee that no such revised technical analysis will be done in the case of the WTC towers. History is written, for both good and bad, and that is what will be fed to people in the future.
 
It wasn't.

Try again

hahahaha..that's not my theory... but I recall NIST seemed to be having a party with sagging trusses.

I put forth a theory above... you didn't read or comprehend it I suppose.

By the way.... I knew Judith Resnick... We were in the same graduating class at Carnegie Mellon University.
 
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I think there is a lot of "revisionism" going on in history. I don't think anyone can dispute this. What seems to be the recurring theme... is that some special interest (person(s), corporation, industry, institution etc.) benefited or escaped responsibility or accountability.

It seems winning is more important than fairness, accuracy ethics. Winning is usually measured by power and material wealth.

Life goes on and not much is changing about how the world turns. Look at the lies which got us to attack Iraq and has anyone or group of institution been held accountable? It's more of a joke... except that probably hundreds of thousands of people and trillions of dollars of property were trashed. Did anyone or group benefit from Iraq or was everyone a loser?

In this country you can't even get a mea culpa from anyone and legal settlements almost always have a clause indicating the settlement is not an indication or guilt or wrong doing.

++++

I sense that Leslie Robertson understands what happened. You can see it in his expression when he discusses the tragedy. I don't even think he is in a political position to do say anything other than ....he was just doing his job... which he was.

But historians have no obligation other than to tell the truth about what happened. Feyman was apparently an ethical person as was Einstein who was deeply troubled at the military use of nuclear power. These are brilliant men of great courage and character.

Sunder is no Richard Feyman!

++++

But of course we will never get the history correct if we have no will to do so.
 
hahahaha..that's not my theory... but I recall NIST seemed to be having a party with sagging trusses.


You truly have no clue what the report says about load transfer, and high temp column creep, etc.

Right?

And yet somehow you think your theory about core beams being pushed out of alignment or whatever it is that you claim makes sense?

LMAO
 
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