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Only one conspiracy theory results in jail time

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TSR said:
No, in fact Zundel was *not* prosecuted for Holocaust denial. He was convicted of inciting racial hatred.
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I think he was convicted for "defaming the memory of the dead".

ETA - actually, it was both.
 
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Liszt said:
What sort of civilized society locks someone up for 7 years for libel? That's longer than a rapist normally serves.
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The 'libel' comparison is absolute nonsense. The Zionists are a million miles from being civilized. Look at Palestine. The Zionists are defined by hatred, and the whole world is their enemy. And they are afraid that the truth will out. Hence laws like the Hungarian one, where you will go to jail for 'making light' of the holohoax. They would pass a that law in the US if they could, and they have been trying for 30 years.
 
Saggy said:
The 'libel' comparison is absolute nonsense. The Zionists are a million miles from being civilized. Look at Palestine. The Zionists are defined by hatred, and the whole world is their enemy. And they are afraid that the truth will out. Hence laws like the Hungarian one, where you will go to jail for 'making light' of the holohoax. They would pass a that law in the US if they could, and they have been trying for 30 years.
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I would suggest you show your disgust by not living in the countries that are stopping his free speech.
 
Saggy said:
The 'libel' comparison is absolute nonsense.
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Oh dear wise Saggy, oh tell us why this comparison is nonsense. Give us your wisdom instead of handwaving it away like you had no arguments for your assertion.

Saggy said:
The Zionists are a million miles from being civilized. Look at Palestine. The Zionists are defined by hatred, and the whole world is their enemy.
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What has that to do with the topic of the thread? I won't ask for evidence because this is an obvious derail.

Saggy said:
And they are afraid that the truth will out. Hence laws like the Hungarian one, where you will go to jail for 'making light' of the holohoax. They would pass a that law in the US if they could, and they have been trying for 30 years.
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How would you like it when someone first murdered your next of kin, then goes on "didn't happen because I say so" and then accuses you of lying and being part of a conspiracy to defraud people of money? What reaction do you expect?
 
Chaos said:
Do you enjoy taking my posts out of context?

Someone spreading BS is a good reason to reply to the poster and set the record straight.

The reason why I think Holocaust Denial should remain illegal is that it is libel - which I suppose is illegal in the US, too.
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In the US Libel and Slander are almost all matters for the Civil Courts. If someone libels you, you can sue his butt in court and get money if you win, but he cannot be put in jail for that (unless it is for something like refusing to pay the court judgement).
I think Libel and Slander should be civil, not criminal cases.
 
timhau said:
So, prosecute them using regular libel laws. However, that's not the route that was taken; they were prosecuted not for libel but for Holocaust denial. As I've said earlier, that is understandable, but it still shouldn't happen in a free society -- not like that.
As far as I know, the article in question states the denial has to take place under circumstances "likely to disturb the public piece" or something like that - aggravating circumstances, in other words. I´m sure US jurisdiction knows the concept of aggravating circumstances as well.

I really, really hate to say anything that can be construed as standing up for these reprehensible morons, but freedom of speech is important.
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Fine. Then legalize libel. Legalize slander. But stop pissing on those who take today´s Nazis to task for their crimes.
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TSR said:
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No, in fact Zundel was *not* prosecuted for Holocaust denial. He was convicted of inciting racial hatred.
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OK, my bad. However, I don't know whether that makes things any better.

TSR said:
Except for the teeny fact that no country on Earth allows complete freedom of speech.
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Of course not. However, I think you'd need compelling reasons for banning any sort of expression; speech that causes undeserved, demonstrable harm to an individual or a specific group of individuals, or speech that demonstrably puts them in danger is fair game for limitation. Yes, preaching anti-Semitic garbage to a crowd of skinheads with lighters, gasoline ganisters and baseball bats in front of a full synagogue should be banned. It's a lot more dicey if all the harm happens in the abstract.


TSR said:
The Germans have chosen to draw their line based on their historical experience. You may disagree with that line, which is your right -- but they have the right to draw it, as well. It should be noted that I am not in favour of those countries which *do* outright criminalize denial. The proper way to deal with deniers is to point out their intellectual bankruptcy, then point and laugh.
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Agreed. As I said, I fully understand why Germans draw the line where they do, and my guess is that if you had a referendum, the line is where the general populace wants it to be. Yet, the idea of banning any forms of political expression -- however lunatic and disgusting -- makes me a little uneasy. However, as long as the limitations are this far on the insane side of the sane-to-insane continuum, it doesn't have any practical consequences.


Chaos said:
Fine. Then legalize libel. Legalize slander. But stop pissing on those who take today´s Nazis to task for their crimes.
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Oh yes, that's exactly what I was suggesting, wasn't it, along with frequent re-enactments of Kristallnacht?
 
Saggy said:
The 'libel' comparison is absolute nonsense. The Zionists are a million miles from being civilized. Look at Palestine.
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Small chunck of land in the middle east. We ran it between the wars and a short time after what of it?
 
timhau said:
Just out of interest: how many such proposals have there been in congress?
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They've been at it for 30 years, so, a lot. And they're also active in the states, with many state laws passed.

After many years of being stymied the paleo-cons and a Republican admin, they've recently had success in getting the Feds more actively involved in prosecuting 'hate crime' laws and a stronger law was just passed.

Info is all over the ADL site .... the links I have are ...

http://www.adl.org/99hatecrime/print.asp

http://www.adl.org/internet/print.asp

Check out how they whine about the First Amendment.

The 'hate crime' laws come down hard on the evangelicals, so the Zionists get to have double fun with that, and the only organized opposition has been from the religious right ..... you can see their take on the subject here ...

http://www.truthtellers.org/
 
as Holocaust denial tends to slander a whole nation of people, i see the logic in making it illegal.

if you are gonna accuse millions of people of lying, you better be able to prove it.
 
timhau said:
Instead of trying to bury me with long texts, ...
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My bad. I thought you were actually interested in the subject. LOL.


timhau said:
I can't see anything about anti-Holocaust denial laws in those ADL links. Instead of trying to bury me with long texts, why not quote the relevant parts?
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They don't specifically address 'holocaust denial' but given a law that criminalizes 'incitement to hate', one of the Zionists favorite idiotic phrases, that has become law, then it is easy to prosecute holohoax denial.
 
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Saggy said:
They've been at it for 30 years, so, a lot.
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But if you apply the same standards to the rest of history that you do to the Holocaust, then you have no idea what happened 30 years ago. Zero evidence that there was such a thing as Congress, much less that they worked on any particular legislation.
 
I'm new to the whole holocaust-never-happened stuff and I'd like to ask a question of Saggy, although it may be off topic.

Of all the Jews that were sent to camps, had any of them done anything to deserve being placed in camps?
 
aggle-rithm said:
But if you apply the same standards to the rest of history that you do to the Holocaust, then you have no idea what happened 30 years ago. Zero evidence that there was such a thing as Congress, much less that they worked on any particular legislation.
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If holocaust deniers used the same logic they used on the holocaust, nothing that didn't

A) happen right in front of them.

B) Happen and they could get a chunk with the time, date, and reason for chunks existence

Would exist.

It would be nothing more than a bunch of people saying " well i was there, here is a chunk of **insert evidence here**" " yeah well i wasn't, so how do i know that is really a chunk of what you say it is?"
 
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