One world government?

jay gw said:
Oh my goodness. Another American historical revisionist!

Americans colonized from Europe, the most advanced society in the world at that time. Get real.

I'm setting the conditions for anyone here to demonstrate a nation rising from a 3rd world status to that of 1st world in the last 100 years solely and exclusively by their own national efforts.

If you're not up to the challenge, don't act silly and divert attention to my post 100 posts ago and other such nonsense.

Just grow up and say the idea that lesser developed cultures can rise through their own efforts is foolish.

That's why 1 world government is the only way that the world will become more rational and fair, and the weath will increase exponentially for all nations.

The rising tide lifts all boats.

Get real yourself, kid. The U.S. may have been colonized by England initially, but it remained a weak nation until after succession and independance. The U.S. rose to power without help from 'Mother England', without 'financial transfers' from other nations (aside from good business - hardly what you are referring to here, is it moron?) - in other words, the U.S. fulfilled your requirements.

If colonization negates those requirements, then in essence EVERY COUNTRY ON EARTH is immune to your request, since every modern Nation has risen from some prior colonization from some other, superior country.

THAT would be the "No True Scotsman' fallacy.

Anyway, pull your head from your rectum for five minutes and answer the questions put to you... RandFan's and my own (how would you go about breeding honest and selfless people with power/how would you prevent absolute power from corrupting?)
 
zaayrdragon said:
If colonization negates those requirements, then in essence EVERY COUNTRY ON EARTH is immune to your request, since every modern Nation has risen from some prior colonization from some other, superior country.

THAT would be the "No True Scotsman' fallacy.
That is why he is playing this little game. He is trying to make it impossible to even make an argument. Of course he was the one to make the claim first. Will he defend it? Will he even acknowledge that he made the claim? Depends on how honest the guy is. If he refuses to acknowledge that he made a claim and made it fisrt then he is dishonest.
 
Let's face it - government sucks, period - no matter the type.

In the U.S., government has gotten more out-of-control, the larger it is. We've at least got a system by which we can reign it in, to a very small degree, but lawmaking on the National level rarely accurately reflects the needs and wants at the Local level.

Fortunately, much pertinent lawmaking occurs at State, City, and Town levels as well. Even then, though, there are imperfections.

Now, consider the U.S., Jay, as a small-scale version of your OWG. Has this Uber-government allowed every state to be equally wealthy? Every town, equally affluent? Is Arcadia, Florida as wealthy and modernized as San Francisco, California? Are folks in Deming, NM reaping the financial benefits of wealth being pulled into Alaska?

On some level, yes, there is a homogenization within the States. Health care is equally unaffordable everywhere, medicines and food supplies are just as available in nearly every major population center, and some form of education and police protection exists. However - there are still huge inequalities at work. The school system in Cincinnati, OH is a FAR cry from the adolescent penal system of South Florida. Road conditions in North Carolina are finally improving to match national standards, but in New Mexico, some fairly large areas are still paved in packed dirt.

Now expand this to a OWG that has to distribute everything globally. How many decades - centuries, perhaps - would this gov have to be operating at peak efficiency for remote parts of the Ukraine to have Montessori schools and socialized medicine? For African jungle dwellers to enjoy the benefits of grocery stores and DSL Internet access?

Again, a lovely - and utterly impractical - dream. As another poster pointed out - a OWG isn't going to bring about world unity, but world unity may bring about a OWG.

...

You know, even England qualifies for his request, minus the 100-year issue. Doesn't it?

In fact, name a superpower that became a superpower through financial contributions from other superpowers.
 
The U.S. may have been colonized by England initially, but it remained a weak nation until after succession and independance. The U.S. rose to power without help from 'Mother England', without 'financial transfers' from other nations

Err...you do realize that the American Revolution was financed by France, don't you? Without France's help, the United States would still be a colony.

United States Department of the Interior
The American Revolution

As a result of the patriot victory at Saratoga and American diplomatic efforts, France allies itself with the new American government. French financial and military aid will prove critical in winning the war. The Continental Army will learn of the French Alliance in May.

http://www.nps.gov/revwar/about_the_revolution/timeline_of_events_11_14.html
 
jay gw said:
So you are not going to answer the question? You are not going to support your claim? Will you withdraw it?

Poorer countries can't overcome their problems without transfers from richer ones.
We are still waiting for proof.
 
jay gw said:
Err...you do realize that the American Revolution was financed by France, don't you? Without France's help, the United States would still be a colony.

United States Department of the Interior
The American Revolution

As a result of the patriot victory at Saratoga and American diplomatic efforts, France allies itself with the new American government. French financial and military aid will prove critical in winning the war. The Continental Army will learn of the French Alliance in May.

http://www.nps.gov/revwar/about_the_revolution/timeline_of_events_11_14.html

Again, you're referring to events far prior to America becoming a superpower. Again, you're setting a condition to make it impossible for any country to exist that meets your qualifications.

The United States did not become a superpower as a direct result of financial aid from France. The United States did not become a superpower as a direct result of financial aid from England.

The United States became a superpower because WWII left Europe in a terrible economic state, with Communists gaining a firm foothold in their governments; the U.S. had a strong post-war economy and a monopoly on nuclear weapons.

In no way was financial aide from a superior nation a factor. And that IS in the last 100 years.

So... about those questions...?
 
Again, you're referring to events far prior to America becoming a superpower.

No, I'm referring to your posts claiming that Americans founded the country with no outside help. False. America would still be a colony of Britain had it not been for France's aid during the war.

The United States became a superpower because WWII left Europe in a terrible economic state, with Communists gaining a firm foothold in their governments; the U.S. had a strong post-war economy and a monopoly on nuclear weapons.

In no way was financial aide from a superior nation a factor. And that IS in the last 100 years.

Oh wow. Do you know who actually built America's atomic bombs?

Enrico Fermi - Italian
Robert Oppenheimer - German
Otto Frisch - German
Leo Szilard - Hungarian
George Kistiakowski - Russian
James Franck - German
Emilio Segrè - Italian
Eugene Wigner - Hungarian

http://www.childrenofthemanhattanproject.org/HF/hall_of_fame_gallery_1.htm
 
Jay...quit
tapdancing.gif


and answer the question.
 
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos said:
Do I pay taxes to this world government? If so, forget it. The farther my money goes from home, the less I have a clue what it's doing.

~~ Paul
I agree. I've said it before and I'll say it again - keep your enemies close and your politicians closer.
 
jay gw said:
I'm looking for you to describe a country that has risen from a 3rd world status to 1st world solely and exclusively by its own efforts. 100 years is enough time for you to investigate and find one, I'm not asking for a dissertation.

Taiwan
 
jay gw said:
No, I'm referring to your posts claiming that Americans founded the country with no outside help. False. America would still be a colony of Britain had it not been for France's aid during the war.
So, I guess your not going to answer the queston? Why not jay?

Poorer countries can't overcome their problems without transfers from richer ones.
Can you support this claim?

Response so far.
 

The History of Taiwan
http://www.taiwandc.org/hst-1624.htm

The Taiwanese didn't like the idea of incorporation into Japan, and on 25 May 1895 -- with the assistance of disenchanted Manchu officials -- the Taiwan Republic, the first independent republic in Asia was established.

However, a few days later, on 29 May 1895, a Japanese military force of over 12,000 soldiers landed in Northern Taiwan, and started to crush the movement. On 21 October 1895, Japanese imperial troops entered Tainan, the southern capital of the Taiwan Republic, ending its short life.

The Japanese Period

The Japanese occupation was harsh, but at least the Japanese were not corrupt. The educational system was built up to the same level as in Japan, infrastructure, trains, roads, industry etc. were developed extensively. An excellent academic work on the Japanese period is Mr. George Kerr's work on the "Formosan Home Rule Movement."

During the following 20 years, from 1952 to 1972, the Kuomintang was able to build up Taiwan economically, thanks to the hard work of the Taiwanese, and the sound infrastructure built up by the Japanese.

http://www.taiwan.com.au/Polieco/History/report04.html

Despite the Japanese success in transforming Taiwan into a society that, economically, was rather modern in comparison with its neighbors, resistance against alien rule never ceased on the island.
_____

The truth of the matter is that you will not find any stone age culture that has ever managed to lift itself into a more developed stage without direct interventions from major powers.

There's no way for the world to become more equitable and fair without the structure of a 1 world government.
 
jay gw said:
There's no way for the world to become more equitable and fair without the structure of a 1 world government.
Another claim. I'm guessing your not going to prove that one either.
 
It's inevitable

Isaac Asimov said it somewhere in one of his excellent non-fiction books. Roughly quoted: "One day we will wake up and a world government will be in place. It won't be a matter of debate." Asimov's logic was, as usual, incontrovertible. The resources of the world are limited, and the necessity for cooperating with each other is far greater than any gain we would get from continuing our nationalism. If we can't manage a world government, we will probably regress back to the stone age. Every development of the last 200 years has been in the direction of greater cooperation internationally -- even the setbacks have ended up being two steps forward.

The main reason I strongly support a world government becomes harder to ignore every single day: as globalization of our economy occurs, our local governments' power to speak for us ordinary citizens diminishes. Corporations operate in the white space between national boundaries -- if they don't agree with the policies of one nation, they can simply ignore them and funnel product in and money out through intermediaries, or leave the nation entirely. Even wealthy nations with formerly strong social controls over corporations (such as the U.S.) now basically have no bargaining power, except to hysterically promise lower taxes and less regulation. In this race to the bottom, all of the advances made in standards of living, social mobility and security, and civil rights are being jettisoned in a perverse Darwinian logic. Free Market Weenies will simply shrug and tell us this is inevitable, and we can't do anything about it.

And I ask -- why should we tolerate it, then? In every social exchange there are compromises. But in the global economy, multinational corporations don't have to compromise anymore, because there is no central authority. They can play nations off each other like spoiled children against confused parents, and get whatever their bratty CEO's and shareholders want regardless of who they screw over. Outsourcing is often pointed to as the inexorable logic of globalization, and we are frequently told in the U.S. to expect a long period, maybe a permanent one, of crummy employment and declining standard of living. And I have to ask Free Market Weenies if they think Americans will tolerate that. Or if they have to.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, there have been a great many small shifts in power, accumulating to a giant Powerquake, as it were. The faultline of that quake, now being eagerly dynamited by George W. Bush, is U.S. unilateralism. As long as we didn't try to actually use our immense strength as the only world's remaining superpower, we remained respectably in control, speaking softly and carrying a big stick. Bush, like a 4-year-old with no control, grabbed the stick and hit the first thing he saw, and the quake we're all feeling now is our power collapsing. It could not stand more than a single use, and maybe it's better that he went ahead and wasted it now, rather than allowing us to spend years rotting from the inside, but the fact is our unilateral hold over the world is gone. We have lost the world's respect and admiration. Historians will mark 2003 as the year the U.S. began to decline in real power.

When it's over, a globalized nation will stand, with shifting and uncertain alliances and a tremendous need for someone to take direction. No one will tolerate China as a world leader, even though they appear to be the most likely successor, because their credibility as a democratic state is rather frail. I don't know how it will happen, or if it will take a resource war over oil to engender the need, but at some point after the vacuum of power is left by our departure from the scene, the remaining credible democracies of the world will constitute the first world government, likely based on whatever remains of the U.N.
 
jay gw said:
The History of Taiwan
http://www.taiwandc.org/hst-1624.htm

The Taiwanese didn't like the idea of incorporation into Japan, and on 25 May 1895 -- with the assistance of disenchanted Manchu officials -- the Taiwan Republic, the first independent republic in Asia was established.

However, a few days later, on 29 May 1895, a Japanese military force of over 12,000 soldiers landed in Northern Taiwan, and started to crush the movement. On 21 October 1895, Japanese imperial troops entered Tainan, the southern capital of the Taiwan Republic, ending its short life.

The Japanese Period

The Japanese occupation was harsh, but at least the Japanese were not corrupt. The educational system was built up to the same level as in Japan, infrastructure, trains, roads, industry etc. were developed extensively. An excellent academic work on the Japanese period is Mr. George Kerr's work on the "Formosan Home Rule Movement."

During the following 20 years, from 1952 to 1972, the Kuomintang was able to build up Taiwan economically, thanks to the hard work of the Taiwanese, and the sound infrastructure built up by the Japanese.

http://www.taiwan.com.au/Polieco/History/report04.html

Despite the Japanese success in transforming Taiwan into a society that, economically, was rather modern in comparison with its neighbors, resistance against alien rule never ceased on the island.
_____

The truth of the matter is that you will not find any stone age culture that has ever managed to lift itself into a more developed stage without direct interventions from major powers.

There's no way for the world to become more equitable and fair without the structure of a 1 world government.

Well Jay, which is it?

a 3rd world country, or a Stone Age culture?

Within the last 100 years, or back in 1895?

Without direct transfers or without any contact of any kind, or without trading with more advanced cultures?

And what about that 'power corrupts' thingy you were supposed to disprove?
 
INRM said:
I actually oppose.

The same reason I'm not fond of monopolies.

If you have one big government, and it goes sour... what do you do? Fly to Alpha Centauri???

I think having at least 3-nations would be a good idea.


That way you can run to another nation if the other goes sour.

-INRM

Sounds like my position.
 
Re: It's inevitable

SlippyToad said:
Since the fall of the Soviet Union, there have been a great many small shifts in power, accumulating to a giant Powerquake, as it were. The faultline of that quake, now being eagerly dynamited by George W. Bush, is U.S. unilateralism. As long as we didn't try to actually use our immense strength as the only world's remaining superpower, we remained respectably in control, speaking softly and carrying a big stick. Bush, like a 4-year-old with no control, grabbed the stick and hit the first thing he saw, and the quake we're all feeling now is our power collapsing. It could not stand more than a single use, and maybe it's better that he went ahead and wasted it now, rather than allowing us to spend years rotting from the inside, but the fact is our unilateral hold over the world is gone. We have lost the world's respect and admiration. Historians will mark 2003 as the year the U.S. began to decline in real power.
Rhetoric. I agree with scant little you have said. If you took the time to find the truth you would know that the French were screwing us long before Bush took office (see oil for food).

America: "Hey Francois, will you respect us in the morning?"

France: Morning? Hell, I don't respect you now.

If you knew history you would know that world governments long before Bush used the UN to attack and deride America. The notion that we were respected by the world is a myth. American policy in South America has been disastrous and not garnered any respect there. Our support of Israel has made us enemies of many Muslim countries. Our bases in Saudi Arabia also engendered lots of resentment from Muslim nations.

Open your eyes, find the truth and don't just consume the spoon fed propaganda of those who tell you what you want to hear.
 
The notion that we were respected by the world is a myth.

Yes, I agree that the idea America was respected, ever, is a myth.

However, that's not what the one world government debate is about.
 
A country that does reasonably well is Costa Rica. They do this without a standing army, or appreciable natural resources like oil or illegal drugs.

Devil's advocate:

Suppose for a moment, that instead of this one government being a political entity, it were a corporate one?

So what qualities do our current political systems have that a worldwide conglomeration of corporations could not do better?

Iacchus
This does not seem like much of a coincidence to me.
First letter is z, but that starts the sequence so why count it?
Rather than look at the other three letters separately, I would consider their frequency in English as "aph". This set is common, and even in google yields over 600,000 literal hits.

Even more convincing, :rolleyes: their Scrabble scores are quite different:
Code:
Z  a p h o d B e e b l e b r o x
10+1+3+4+1+2+3+1+1+3+1+1+3+1+1+8

Score = 44

Z  a p h n a t h p a a n e a
10+1+3+4+1+1+1+4+3+1+1+1+1+1 

Score = 33
:D
 

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