One possible way to end Affirmative Action?

How collectivist of you, Malachi.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Malachi151
Well, you have failed to support your vague assertions so all I can do is assume, or repeadly ask you to clarify, then reply, taking twice as long to have a discussion.

"You have failed to support your vague assertions"...

That, sir, is a lie. You, sir, are a liar. I haven't TRIED to suport them. I said, clearly and obviously, that they were long ago, far away, and very VERY annoying.

I DO NOT CARE TO DISCUSS THEM. I am WELL ACCUSTOMED TO POLITICAL EXTREMISTS ON BOTH SIDES DEMANDING "DETAILS" AND THEN USING THEM AGAINST A PERSON IN ORDER TO DISMISS THEM LATER.

I DO NOT CARE TO DISCUSS THEM. IS THAT CLEAR?


In what way are we currently losing intelligent people due to AA?


Why EVER do you assert I said that?

Is there a reason for your continued mis-summations, drawing of illicit, dishonest, and unethical conclusions, and your general ill-behavior?

okay, so explain what you mean then. Thats the only logical explanation for your statement that I could think of.

Then your imagination is quite lacking.

No, the claims here, by you and others, are that because of AA white people are not getting into institutions that they should be getting into based on merit.

I did not claim that. Only your own reactionary prejudice has invented that. I DID NOT CLAIM THAT. DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF SAYING THINGS THAT I HAVE SPECIFICALLY NOT SAID!

Whatever the implicatiosn are they are nothing to d with whites not getting access to oppertunity.

And this is relevant to my position in what sense, sir?

Not granted. Illicit assumption. Start over.

No, it is granted. The race is not supposed to symbolize you vs a black person, its supposed to symbolize the white race vs the black race.

You, sir, can not tell me that you have the authority to tell me what to think, and you, sir, have just done so. I refuse to grant your absurd claim, and that's that.

Yes on an issue of you and black guy X apply to a college, you have a GPA of 2.7 he has a GPA of 2.0 and he get's admited and you don't, that is an unfair situation.

Exactly when did I ever have a GPA of 2.7. Do tell?

Looking at that we see that the more qualified person got screwed.

And the individual does, or does not, have value?

Answer the question.

However, looking at the macro view we see that without that type of activity, and knowing that people are a product of their environment, that the black population will not be able to progress towards a position of eqaulity with whites.
[/QUOTE]
Once again, you fail to make any case for your hidden zero-sum assumptions.

Your behavior is quite appalling sir. First, I am in favor of equal opportunity, and in a sense fairly similar to yours to affirmative action. You are SO prejudiced and blind as to be unable to realize that because I have stated the FACT that I was injured by affirmative action, and that I have had financial problems (they are gone now, but I COULD be retired and I'm not) and health problems because of it.

You demand details. You, sir, are not in any position to demand medical information OR finanacial information. You are not owed validation. Furthermore, you are not allowed illicit straw-man positions that are directly opposite my stated positions and opinions, straw-man positions that show clearly your own prejudices and inability to accept the direct statements of other human beings.

In short, you have implied directly that I am not a human being. You have not treated me like a human being, you do not listen to what I've said, and you react to what you imagine.

Exactly how are you different from an appalling "neo-conservative" except in who you discriminate against?
 
c0rbin said:


AA pertains to race. That is obvious.


Geez, I thought it was. There are some people who are actually arguing that it isn't about race, when it's obvious to even the most casual observer that it is.

Geez.
 
c0rbin said:
AA is not racist because if you look at the wording of the anit-descrimination laws that surround it, they say you may not use race et al as a consideration.

Whoooop! Whooooop! Whooooop!

◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ alert!

◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ alert!

Please remain where you are!

The Department of ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ detection has just raised the alert level to high!

I don't believe that for a second. What is it that AA uses for consideration, if not race? :rolleyes:

You got any evidence to back this?


Hence it pertains to race. To call that racism is like calling anti-child porn laws kiddie porn because it contains the words "minors" and "genitalia."

No. When I say that it's racist, I mean that it discriminates on the basis of race.

It's really very simple.

Don't make it any harder than that. That's really all there is.

AA discriminates on the basis of race. Therefore, it's a racist policy.

Simple, really.

If the policy that we were discussing discriminated on the basis of sex, it'd be a sexist policy.

If it discriminated on the basis of facial hair, it'd be a hirsutist policy.

But it doesn't. It dicriminates on the basis of race.

AA is a racist policy, and racism is wrong.
 
There are colleges for qualified kids.

A kid who fails to get into what he considers a top school because of skin color surely will qualify for another more than adequate school. Rather than spending his valuable youth and his money in court, he should get on with his education. How we do in life depends more on job performance than on where we went to college. For most of us, a college diploma is a foot in the door to our first job. After that, the education that impresses employers and clients is what we've learned on the job and our accomplishments in the real world. A large engineering firm I worked for had some highly regarded employees who had no college education at all. They were exceptional in that they were unusually smart and realized it early enough to avoid wasting time in college learning stuff they could pick up on their own. Most of us aren't that gifted, but this shows that at least one employer was not just looking for diplomas, but ability.
 
jj

What the hell man?

You won't discuss your position or clarify your statements, yet you get mad at me? I don't think so. If you aren't going to clarify your position then just get the hell out fo the thread.

Why EVER do you assert I said that?

I'm for AA in modified form, there is need to ensure that we don't lose smart people, because they are so (*&( hard to come by from any background.

I was simply asking if you felt that we were currently losing intelligent whites due to AA based on this statement, and the fact that you say it needs to be revised.

Here's a copy of my post on this matter in the BET forums:

Yes, many people would disagree, which is sad, because this is something that has been understood for over 100 years, yet our education system does not really like to say these things. My degree is in Biology, so my views come from that perspective.

Think about this though.

All of development can only be affected by two things. #1 biology, i.e. genetics; the DNA that says what to do. #2 is environment, which is really just action - reaction. There is nothing else, unless you want to consider supernatural issues, but lets just avoid that issue for now.

Your DNA is like a computer program. If you start a program, like Turbo Tax for example, the way the program works is defined by the computer code, but the input changes how the program responds. A human is the same way. The DNA forms a set of rules that will be followed, but the input (environment) determines how the program develops. Everything is reactionary.

So take Turbo Tax for example again. If you run it many times and put in the same numbers every time then you will get the same results every time. But if you do anything different then the results will be different.

This is to say that a person will develop uniquely depending on his environment, so like if you took someone and made 10 clones, raised one in poverty, one poor, one low middle class, one middle class, one in America, China, Africa, etc, each clone will develop differently. The DNA determines how the environment (input) affects development, so it is true that race does matter to some degree, but the difference between people of different races is often less than people within races, which is surprising, but true. A "black" man and a "white" may have more DNA in common than two black men.

So, what I'm getting at here is that RACE is not the issue, CULTURE is. When you break down the facts there is no way to deny this. Its really common sense though if we think about it. Black children adopted at a young age by middle class whites are more successful than blacks raised in poverty by black families. Obviously race is not the issue, the environment is.

The whole black/white issue is not even an issue, its a matter of culture and social situations.

Another great example of all this, and one that blacks need to get more educated on so they can use it as an argument, is the issue of "white races".

In Europe there was no idea of "whites". "Whites" is a new American idea. In the old world, Europe, the Middle East, Asia, and Africa people all recognize many smaller ethnic groups. A good example is the Irish in Great Britain. The Irish have been discriminated against by the Anglos for hundreds of years. The same attitudes that many whites have towards blacks in America the Anglos had to the Irish. They aid that the Irish were an inferior ethic group, stupid, lazy, unlawful, worthless, etc, that "by blood" they were inferior. The Irish have been discriminated against and poor for centuries there.

Now, in America, once all whites grouped together and saw themselves and WHITES, not separate ethnic groups, the Irish were no longer discriminated against, and now today in America the Irish are just as successful as any other Europeans.

So this is an example of how the perception of race creates the problem, not genetics. You have to really understand how oppressed the Irish were to really get this example, the Irish were close to where blacks in America were about 80 years ago in America. All that was needed for Irish people to be successful is for them to get out of their oppressed environment AND also for them to get out of their own culture and into a new culture with a fresh start.

I am positive that the issue in America with any oppressed minority is the exact same. The issue is not race at all, its environment, which is not to say just how whites treat blacks, but the black community itself too. Look at poor white people. Poor white people have poor white kids often, not because of genetics, but because kids growing up in a poor environment develop into the type of people who become poor.

Same with blacks, and on top of that they also have discrimination to deal with too.

So how does white trailer-park trash get out of poverty as a group? They can't, and neither can blacks in poverty. It gets even more complicated though.

Our economic system requires that a certain amount of people be in poverty. We can't get everyone out of poverty unless we change our economy. For example a janitor or garbage man, etc may work full time, and still be in poverty. Those jobs have to be done, so someone has to do it, yet if they don't pay well that means whoever is doing those jobs will always be in poverty. Every single full time job should have to pay a wage above the poverty level, but they don't. It does not matter if people work harder in those jobs, and those jobs HAVE to be filled so people can't just not do those jobs and get better jobs instead. Someone will have to take the jobs, and whoever that is, will be in poverty.

Our system also requires that a certain amount of people be unemployed. The Federal Reserve tries to keep unemployment above 4%. When unemployment gets too low wages goes up, which employers don't like, and which also contributes to inflation. So, the Fed manipulates interest rates in efforts to indirectly influence unemployment, driving it up when it goes under 5%. This means that there will always be people without a job no matter what and that in fact we could have 0% unemployment if our government wanted to allow that to happen, but that that would drive wages up dramatically and increase inflation, which is bad for the wealthy. Overall though what it means is that the system is designed to have people out of work, so blaming people who are out of work makes no sense. No matter what there will always be people out of work, the system will not allow for there not to be people out of work.

Right now, blacks makeup a disproportionate number of the unemployed and working poor. So, if we try to make the situation proportionate, yet we maintain a system were there will always be people in poverty and always be unemployed people then that must mean that we would have to force more whites into poverty for blacks to get out.

So this is getting to the real issues here. The problem is not race, and its not just culture or environment, it's also the entire system. AA starts having problems when people see that AA may be disadvantaging whites, which if AA were to really work like proposed it would disadvantage whites, because if unemployment is always going to be at least 5% then if fewer blacks make up that statistic then it means that other races must be making up that statistic. So, the fight to get out of poverty can never really be won unless the system changes, and it is impossible to expect the poor to do it, they can't, the wealthy have to do it by paying higher wages eliminating unemployment, but of course the wealthy don’t want to do that because the only way to do that w/o just causing useless inflation is to lower profits of the wealthy.

Here is a good interview on the Bell Curve, the book that claims that Blacks are "inferior" to whites:

http://www.skeptic.com/03.3.fm-sternberg-interview.html

quote:
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Sternberg: What I mean is that there is absolutely no relation between how heritable something is and the existence of a difference in group means. The most common example is height. Height has a heritability of greater than .9, but heights have increased quite dramatically in some countries like Japan and have also increased in our own country over the course of several generations. So despite the much higher heritability of height than anyone believes of intelligence, we see that height can increase. To take a more extreme example: there is a disease known as Phenylketonuria (PKU), which is 100% heritable and yet through an environmental intervention, namely withholding Phenylalanine from the diets of infants from birth, you can either reduce or eliminate the mental retardation that normally results. In other words, even when heritability is 1.00, environmental interventions still matter. There are different ways to look at intelligence. One is to do heritability statistics, which I've never found to be that helpful. Another way is to look at studies on intervention. For example, Dennis did a large study in Iran where he found that kids that were placed in Iranian orphanages, almost without exception, were mentally retarded, whereas the children who were quickly adopted before the age of two scored at normal levels on intelligence tests, roughly a 50-point difference in obtained IQ.

Skeptic: Are such results repeatable?

Sternberg: Yes. Obviously the environment of the Iranian orphanage was pretty bad and that's why you got that level of retardation. But if you look at the kinds of environments some of our least fortunate get, even in the United States, in the inner cities, they are not so hot either. Diamond performed studies on brain mass in rats and found that if you give them an enriched environment, it affects the brain, which becomes heavier and more convoluted.
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quote:
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Skeptic: How is your more elaborate view of heritability and its limitations different from what Herrnstein and Murray say in The Bell Curve?

Sternberg: The way that book is written is to, I think, say X on page 605 in sentence 8, with an appropriate caution, and then invite the reader to a somewhat more extreme conclusion elsewhere. So if you were to ask, "Is there anywhere in The Bell Curve that explains what heritability truly is?" there probably is. If you were to ask, "What inference do Herrnstein and Murray invite their readers to draw?" they go beyond what they know. For example, with regard to race differences, Herrnstein and Murray invite the reader to conclude that race differences are due to genetics, even though they have no evidence of that, and they know it.

Sternberg: Yes, but there is evidence that they do not review at all. There is nothing in the book that suggests that race differences are genetic. They even say that. But what they do say is that is what we would infer given the data, even though probably somewhere else, they would have one sentence to the effect that there is one study. And they don't cite a number of studies that suggest that race differences are not genetic.
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quote:
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Skeptic: Which then is your position on the question of race differences in IQ? We all see the 1 standard deviation difference in mean IQ if we give the tests to groups of Blacks and Whites. Is that mean difference the result of genetics, environment, both, or should we say at this point that we just don't know?

Sternberg: What we know is that almost any difference is some interaction between heredity and environment. But in terms of apportioning the difference, we have no idea. And I think that Herrnstein and Murray know that as well as do other psychologists. Like everyone else we don't like ambiguous situations, so some jump to conclusions even though I think at this point we don't have a very good idea of why we get that difference. Although we recognize that it has generally been decreasing over time.
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quote:
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Sternberg: One example is taking studies that show that within group heritabilities have nothing to do with between group heritabilities and then insinuating that they do. Another example is the issue of causation and correlation. They know, and anyone who takes statistics knows, you can't draw any real causal conclusions from correlational data. Lots of things correlate with lots of things, IQ being one of them. To draw causal inferences from correlational data, which is what all their data are, is statistically incorrect. Another thing that many may not realize is that virtually all their data are based on one study, the National Longitudinal Study of Youth (NLSY), which was not a study that was particularly representative of the United States population.
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quote:
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Sternberg: Some years back in the early 1980s the government of Venezuela initiated a country-wide drive to improve the intellectual abilities of the children. They invited a number of researchers from Venezuela and abroad to come in. One program was initiated by Harvard, and Herrnstein was the head of that program. It was successful. They published the results in American Psychologist, which is a leading psychological journal, showing that there had been significant and impressive gains in IQ.
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quote:
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Sternberg: I am not disagreeing that IQ is predictive of a lot of things. I'm not one of the extreme left-wingers who say that IQ tells you absolutely nothing. I don't agree with that. So to the extent that it predicts some level of success in pilot training, I don't have any argument with that. But I do argue with the idea that IQ is the end of the line. We have been working for about 10 years in the field of practical intelligence, predicting, for example, the success of managers and sales people, which are pretty practical occupations. We actually did a study at Brooks AFB and found that our measures of practical intelligence-that is, measures of how well you can go into an environment and figure out what you need to succeed in that environment and then actually do it-predict job success in managerial jobs and in sales jobs at least as well and arguably better than IQ tests. Moreover they do not correlate with IQ tests, which means that (a) IQ is not the only predictor, and (b) the kinds of predictors we have are relatively independent of IQ. That's not to say that one is important and the other is not. Rather, it says that both are important and that there's more to predicting success than just using IQs. If you want to predict success in jobs, I'm not saying that IQ is worthless, but I am saying that it's not the only thing you can use.
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Basically what this is all saying is that there may be a statistical difference between whites and blacks in America, but that environment is very much a part of that difference. Its more proof that observed differences in intelligence and achievement are not race based, but environment based, and that success is dependant on more than just intelligence, which again should be obvious. Success is dependant on opportunity, a variety of personal skills, education, luck, circumstances, etc.

Again, the average person never moves up in class. The average person born into poverty will die in poverty, the same person born into the middle class will die in the middle class, the same person born rich will die rich, its not a genetic issue. So, since we started out with virtually all blacks in poverty its not reasonable to expect that blacks as a group will be able to move themselves out of that position.

All of this goes back to old European misconceptions about "blood". The Europeans have always put a lot of stock in "bloodlines", with the idea that people are born better than others. That same attitude is still pervasive in America today. People may not think that DNA directly makes you successful, or well behaved, or whatever, but they probably don't really think about what exactly does. It's just a vague idea, like "bloodline". When you really analyze it though you see that there is nothing to the idea at all. Middle Class people don't give birth to "better" kids than poor people, the middle class environment creates better kids. Most people today still don't put near enough emphasis on environment and draw out the full conclusions that almost everything that we call "race" in America is really just a product of the environment, along with all the things that people complain about "blacks", including test scores, language, work ethic, and even intelligence.
 
I understand that Sternberg's next treatise will demonstrate why the tooth fairy is real.
 
Malachi151 said:
jj

What the hell man?

You won't discuss your position or clarify your statements, yet you get mad at me? I don't think so. If you aren't going to clarify your position then just get the hell out fo the thread.

Why EVER do you assert I said that?



I was simply asking if you felt that we were currently losing intelligent whites due to AA based on this statement, and the fact that you say it needs to be revised.

Here's a copy of my post on this matter in the BET forums:


So, you don't understand what's clearly written, you interpret it with an assumed agenda for no reason I can see, and then you make insulting assumptions and conclusions based on your assumed agenda.

Then you wonder why I'm peeved at you?

Do you know Jedi Knight? Did you go to the same school of debate?
 
jj said:


So, you don't understand what's clearly written, you interpret it with an assumed agenda for no reason I can see, and then you make insulting assumptions and conclusions based on your assumed agenda.

Then you wonder why I'm peeved at you?

Do you know Jedi Knight? Did you go to the same school of debate?

And you still haven't said a damn thing.
 
Malachi151 said:


And you still haven't said a damn thing.

Go back to my original article, and read it again. I said everything I had to say, directly and simply, with no hidden meanings.

When you stop trying to find hidden meanings in a direct, simple statement made clearly in american english, you'll understand.

Until then, you'll continue to tell untruth about what I "said" or didn't.
 
Yep, this thread has run its course. No one is even discussing my clever idea to challenge AA on the new DNA "Out of Africa" evidence. You know something is wrong when such a gem of an idea has been completely lost amid the eye-poking and screaming matches.
 
JAR said:
Note the word "racial" in the definition which I put in bold text.
Word noted. Ethnicity is still cultural. Hell, race (in terms of skin colour) is pretty much cultural as there's no genetic evidence to support it.
That's because Amish and Irish are not races.
And I never claimed they were; but you'd agree they are distinct and different ethncities?

I personally don't find the skinny look attractive but I know lots of guys who do. In my opinion, that cultural influence is a harmful rejection of the way women were intended to be by nature.
As nature intended? Okay...

What is considered beautiful is influenced by culture. I agree with you there. I also don't think white women are the most attractive women in the world. I like dark skin caucasoidal women best. But that's just my opinion and beauty is just a matter of taste.
Not genetic? Good. :)
 
Genghis Pwn said:
Yep, this thread has run its course. No one is even discussing my clever idea to challenge AA on the new DNA "Out of Africa" evidence.
Because it's completely irrelevant? Btw, how do you equivocate the "Out of Africa" theory with the stuff in that comic book "The Bell Curve"?
 
BillyTK said:
[snip]
Hell, race (in terms of skin colour) is pretty much cultural as there's no genetic evidence to support it.
[snip]
You can't possibly mean to say that a person's skin colour is never caused by DNA. I'd love to have a dark complexion like a portion of the Mexicans do and never have to go around with a farmer's tan, but I can't because my DNA doesn't allow it.
 
Genghis Pwn said:
Yep, this thread has run its course. No one is even discussing my clever idea to challenge AA on the new DNA "Out of Africa" evidence. You know something is wrong when such a gem of an idea has been completely lost amid the eye-poking and screaming matches.

Well, allow me to point out that there ARE definitions for race, even if they mostly don't make sense, and so what you ARE doing is suggesting that people lie.

I have a problem with that. Now, I most often don't reply to such declarations, or put "other" and "scottish-welsh-irish-german-czeck" in it, but that IS the truth, and you can tell my the strength of my (utterly nonexistant) suntan that I'm not genetically identical to those white people with the mahvolous tans. :)
 
JAR said:

You can't possibly mean to say that a person's skin colour is never caused by DNA.
Correct! I'm not saying that. I'm saying that race (in terms of skin colour) is pretty much cultural as there's no genetic evidence to support [race (in terms of skin colour)]; the idea that people can be categorised into different subspecies on the basis of skin colour is a cultural product.
 
BillyTK said:

I'm saying that race (in terms of skin colour) is pretty much cultural as there's no genetic evidence to support [race (in terms of skin colour)]; the idea that people can be categorised into different subspecies on the basis of skin colour is a cultural product.

WTF? This makes no sense at all. There is no genetic basis for skin color? I guess when African babies come out of the womb, they look around, see a bunch of black people, and suddenly their skin starts becoming black as they absorb their African culture?

hahaha.
 
Genghis Pwn said:


WTF? This makes no sense at all. There is no genetic basis for skin color? I guess when African babies come out of the womb, they look around, see a bunch of black people, and suddenly their skin starts becoming black as they absorb their African culture?

hahaha.

methinks he's talking about the scientific definition of "race" vs its common usage.

You can have light skinned African american who has whiter skin then some white guy (for example an olive skinned Italian). That doesn't make the African American guy "white".
 
Genghis Pwn said:


WTF? This makes no sense at all. There is no genetic basis for skin color? I guess when African babies come out of the womb, they look around, see a bunch of black people, and suddenly their skin starts becoming black as they absorb their African culture?

hahaha.

*rotflmao* Strawman! Except strawmen are supposed to be intended aren't they?
 

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