On personal liberties

[shanek]

Shane... I was making the point that if, as was suggested, all women carry handguns to ward off rapists then a lot of other consequences would occur due to the mass of guns being carried around. Mothers and their families would start shooting themselves and each other with these "anti-rape" guns.

And I'm making the point that that simply does not happen to any appreciable degree.

If more people carry more guns more people get shot.

That depends on who's carrying the guns.

Now....WTF is this "gun ban" you talk about??

The airline gun ban. Why did these kinds of things not happen on airplanes at a time when anyone who wanted to could carry a gun onboard?

 

[shanek]

Guns is Greece are outlawed and in USA are not. Let's say that both of us, in both countries belong to groups that believe that our personal freedoms are infrindged upon a government's act and we think that guns are our last resort, if we decided to use them, the law wouldn't stop my group in Greece from using them.

But how would you obtain them?

If both of us decide to resort to armed violence to defend our rights, tell me how will we differ from the terrorist groups that are engaged in urban partisan warfares?

The same reason our founders differ from said terrorists.

Therefore I prefer to be raped or murdered rather that getting a gun and start playing by the rules of the criminals.

Okay, fine; but what business do you have forcing that choice on others?

If what distinghuishes a criminal is the use of a gun

Why is that what distinguishes a criminal? Your argument's gone circular...They're criminals because they use a gun, and they use a gun so they're criminals!

I do not wish to deprive you of your right to owe guns I want to persuade you that you don't need them.

Fair enough.

I am against prohibitary laws, I am pro-persuasion.

Then you are against gun control, right?

 

[Cleopatra]

But how would you obtain them?

Hunting guns are enough to kill people but I guess that we would obtain them the same way my ancestrors found guns for the War of Independance against the Ottomans...

The same reason our founders differ from said terrorists.

Do you mean that the terrorist groups might be justified in their actions?

Why is that what distinguishes a criminal? Your argument's gone circular...They're criminals because they use a gun, and they use a gun so they're criminals!

Well.. isn't going that way indeed? Seriously. I replied to a comment MF made above that if we outlawed guns only criminals we would be armed.

Then you are against gun control, right?

Yes I am, the same way I am against any prohibiting Law regarding drugs. But I start from a significant different point than yours.

You need to have the option to use a gun something that doesn't stand because if anybody wants to use a gun he can find the way regardless if Law permits it or not, I want that this option is out of consideration. If a political system fails to satisfy our needs I want it to be replaced by something else with way you fight against the Patriot Act-thanks for the links BTW.

You cannot appeal to Jefferson Shane, because that way you drag the society back to 1775...

 

[MoeFaux]

Guns is Greece are outlawed and in USA are not. Let's say that both of us, in both countries belong to groups that believe that our personal freedoms are infrindged upon a government's act and we think that guns are our last resort, if we decided to use them, the law wouldn't stop my group in Greece from using them.

If both of us decide to resort to armed violence to defend our rights, tell me how will we differ from the terrorist groups that are engaged in urban partisan warfares?

Don't reply that is enough for you to have the option to use guns because you always have the option to use guns whether they are legal or not.

Moe Faux, my ideas about Liberty were influenced by the writings of Isaiah Berlin. Therefore I prefer to be raped or murdered rather that getting a gun and start playing by the rules of the criminals. If what distinghuishes a criminal is the use of a gun ( as you implied in a previous post of yours) then I have nothing in common with criminals.

I do not wish to deprive you of your right to own guns I want to persuade you that you don't need them.

I am against prohibitary laws, I am pro-persuasion.

edited to correct the usual grammatical and spelling mistakes...

You're very right in saying that just because a gun is illegal doesn't mean you don't have access to it. Think of the success of America's Prohibition. How about drugs? It's a joke. Outlawing guns doesn't mean a damn thing.

I'm going to Venture a guess and say that Greece is a far more peaceful country than the USA. It's probably more centered on culture and so people are more considerate.
I love living in the States...but, we're a bunch of inconsiderate slobs, amid a high crime rate. I'm not sure at this point if I don't need a gun.
And I'm pretty sure that if I were living in Iraq right now that I would need a gun.
I think the base desire of your anit-gun plea is that you just don't want people shooting other people. In that case, I'm right along with you.

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted in this thread yet:
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20030928_750.html

This is an awful story. Just awful. Does anyone have the right thing to say about this? I don't know where to start.

Cleopatra, I had never heard of Berlin before, and a google search on him didn't provide enough information to satisfy me. Is there an essay of his that you can recommend to me?

 

[Chaos]

Posted by shanek:

The same reason our founders differ from said terrorists.

By any definition of terrorism that goes beyond "it´s what those evil guys do", the Bosten Tea Party was a terrorist attack. As were all those assassination attempts on Hitler, Heydrich etc. - or, on the other hand, the Rote Armee Fraktion, Brigade Rosso, Action Directe, ETA, ... (I could compile a nearly endless list here)

All these people felt that they had to resort to the cartridge box, or the pipe bomb.

 

[Tony]

Therefore I prefer to be raped or murdered rather that getting a gun and start playing by the rules of the criminals.

You're pretty sick.

 

[EvilYeti]

You're pretty sick.

On the contrary, Miss Cleopatra is very brave to be willing to make sacrifice like that for her beliefs. Can you say the same?

Considering all the crying you do about the big mean gub'mint taking away your precious pop-guns you should pay attention. You might learn something about what real bravery is.

 

[The Fool]

And I'm making the point that that simply does not happen to any appreciable degree.

Hmmm.....doesn't happen to any appreciable degree? Do you watch the news?
As for Airlines. If you are saying that airlines should allow any passengers to carry whatever guns they like onto flights I don't think there is much point discussing this topic much further.. There are more hijackings since people were stopped from taking guns on flights? There have also been more hijackings since Jet engines, we should go back to piston engines and we would be safer.

Honestly shane....how do you expect people to take you seriously.

 

[shanek]

Hunting guns are enough to kill people but I guess that we would obtain them the same way my ancestrors found guns for the War of Independance against the Ottomans...

...who, as an Empire, were on their way out anyway.

Do you mean that the terrorist groups might be justified in their actions?

No, I said they differ.

Well.. isn't going that way indeed? Seriously. I replied to a comment MF made above that if we outlawed guns only criminals we would be armed.

My point is that it's about as useful as saying drugs should be illegal because drug users are criminals...but they're only criminals because drugs were made illegal in the first place.

You need to have the option to use a gun something that doesn't stand because if anybody wants to use a gun he can find the way regardless if Law permits it or not,

But it's very difficult to do so, and takes time...time that the person defending himself may not have.

You cannot appeal to Jefferson Shane, because that way you drag the society back to 1775...

And why would that be a bad thing? Jefferson's ideals were way ahead of his time. We would do very well to heed them. Are the ways of Marx so much better just because he came later?

 

[shanek]

By any definition of terrorism that goes beyond "it´s what those evil guys do", the Bosten Tea Party was a terrorist attack. As were all those assassination attempts on Hitler, Heydrich etc. - or, on the other hand, the Rote Armee Fraktion, Brigade Rosso, Action Directe, ETA, ... (I could compile a nearly endless list here)

All these people felt that they had to resort to the cartridge box, or the pipe bomb.

The difference, in my mind at least, is that the other cases you mentioned were attacks directly against those who were causing the problems in the first place. The 9/11 attacks, OTOH, were not. They might have been able to justify the attack on the Pentagon on these grounds, but certainly not the World Trade Center.

If you kill someone because he's trying to kill you, that's defense. If you kill someone's sister because he's trying to kill you, that's murder.

 

[hammegk]

By any definition of terrorism that goes beyond "it´s what those evil guys do"...

Phooey. Terrorists' targets are mostly civilian, undefended, soft, targets having little or no military or political power-structure value.

 

[Tony]

On the contrary, Miss Cleopatra is very brave to be willing to make sacrifice like that for her beliefs.

Letting yourself get raped or murdered because you are too much of a coward to defend yourself is absolutely pathetic. There is no bravery, no chivalry, and her "sacrifice" would be meaningless.

 

[MoeFaux]

Letting yourself get raped or murdered because you are too much of a coward to defend yourself is absolutely pathetic. There is no bravery, no chivalry, and her "sacrifice" would be meaningless.

Hey, c'mon, don't slam her just because she differs from you. While there's something admirable about fighting for yourself, there's also something pretty respectable about a person who believes in pacifism.

 

[EvilYeti]

Letting yourself get raped or murdered because you are too much of a coward to defend yourself is absolutely pathetic. There is no bravery, no chivalry, and her "sacrifice" would be meaningless.

Whats brave about defending yourself with a gun? I can defend myself with nothing other than my two bare hands.

Carrying a gun is cowardly.

 

[Tony]

....there's also something pretty respectable about a person who believes in pacifism.

Yeah, who cares if she is raped or dead, at least she stood by her "beliefs".

 

[Tony]

Whats brave about defending yourself with a gun? I can defend myself with nothing other than my two bare hands.

Carrying a gun is cowardly.

Getting desperate? Come back when you got a real argument.

 

[MoeFaux]

Whats brave about defending yourself with a gun? I can defend myself with nothing other than my two bare hands.

Carrying a gun is cowardly.

Have you ever seen "The Americanization of Emily"? Harry Browne recommended it to me. The base idea is, there's nothing brave about being a soldier, and that runs along the line of the idea of using a gun as "brave".
It's a great movie.

Tony, don't be an ass. Just say you disagree.

 

[shanek]

Hey, c'mon, don't slam her just because she differs from you. While there's something admirable about fighting for yourself, there's also something pretty respectable about a person who believes in pacifism.

True, but I do have to question the wisdom of someone who would just submit to a rapist, and rape is from what I understand one of the worst things that can happen to a woman short of murder, and he may even end up murdering her for all she knows, just so she doesn't have to use those awful, evil guns.

Here's a question for Cleopatra:

What if someone were raping you, you were screaming out for help, and a passerby used a gun to stop the rapist? Would you call him a criminal, or would you thank him for his help?

 

[shanek]

Whats brave about defending yourself with a gun? I can defend myself with nothing other than my two bare hands.

Carrying a gun is cowardly.

Ah, yes, that's the answer. 80 year old women should defend themselves with their two bare hands; they don't need guns at all.

Twit.

 

[shanek]

Have you ever seen "The Americanization of Emily"? Harry Browne recommended it to me.

You know Harry Browne too???