On personal liberties

Grammatron said:


Good :)


Well I think it should be the same as cars, actually. If you want to use a gun on public property you need to pass a test to show you know how to use one and get a gun license. We can separate the licenses based on types of guns. This way the rights are still there just that guns are registered and licensed.

For your interest:
Many countries, including my own, do already have such legislation in place. Although it does not work perfectly, we do have significantly lower deaths for guns per capita.
We also have fewer guns per capita, and we´re not missing anything.
 
Zep said:
How many times must we rehash this topic? When will people go outside their doors and have a long hard look at the reality out there?

Many American citizens do NOT own guns, or maybe a handgun or two. The US military, with the President as command-in-chief, owns lots of guns. Big guns that shoot lots of bullets fast and far. And tanks and howitzers and combat aircraft and naval vessels...

So you can bleat all you like about protecting yourself from "the government" but let's face it, in a fire-fight, YOU WILL LOSE! Big time.

Sundog is right - want to protect your rights? Then VOTE. Funny - it has always seemed to work for the last 200+ years...
Okay, first my bona fides. Until September 11, I had never owned a gun; nor had I any desire to do so. And when, a week or so later, I broached the possibility to She Who Must Be Appeased, I was prepared to drop the subject entirely if she did not immediately and wholeheartedly sign on.

But she did, and we bought a revolver. We took the appropriate safety courses, and I've spent enough time at the range to be confident in my ability to drop anyone who breaks into my house. But I'm not happy about it.

We bought a gun, not because we were frightened of our own government - we're not - but because we were easily able to visualize a scenario where terrorists wiped out the power grid in our nation's capital and in the ensuing confusion and panic, and before the militia could restore order, roving gangs of bad guys (rioters, mobs, call them what you will) might decide that our comfortably middle-class neighborhood presented a tempting target.

So I'm not some wild-eyed "gun kook", but I do sleep a little better at night knowing it's there.

Now, does owning a .38 Special make us safe from our own government in the hypothetical event of a military coup?

By itself, of course not.

What makes us safe from our own government is not the fact that tens of millioins of Americans own their own guns. It's not our Constitution. It's not our detestation of tyranny. It's not our military's respect for civilian institutions.

It's ALL of those things, together. No single one of them guarantees our freedoms. But we have a military that respects civilian control; if you don't believe that, ask Douglas MacArthur or any other general the president or secretary of defense has fired for popping off his mouth too much. Without that, we'd be no better off than some banana republic whose military steps in every time they don't like the general drift of things.

And even if our military were to overthrow the elected government, we have millions of armed citizens who hate hate hate the idea of being ordered around by a military junta. Is my .38 Special a match for a howitzer? Of course not. But an armed citizenry can make life miserable even for a modern army. Look what a relatively small number of Iraqis are doing today. By contrast, look at what happened in Tiennamen (sp?) Square. Those brave Chinese students could stand up to the tanks with nothing more imposing than their chests.

And, FWIW, I never fail to vote on election day. Never.
 
Chaos said:


For your interest:
Many countries, including my own, do already have such legislation in place. Although it does not work perfectly, we do have significantly lower deaths for guns per capita.
We also have fewer guns per capita, and we´re not missing anything.
If you're suggesting that more gun ownership = more gun deaths, may I just say "Switzerland"?

BTW, don't you think you should be fair and reveal what your country is if you're going to cite it as People's Exhibit A?
 
My country is Germany.

In Switzerland, guns, or more precisely, rifles, are given to military reservists; these people know how to handle guns, they are taught to be responsible with their guns.

I think most Americans who own guns act just as responsibly with their guns. I´m thinking of soldiers, policemen, security personnel, hunters and such. I don´t know how many people who get guns for self-defense are as careful as you are, though. Is there any legal mechanism that requires people to take these courses? I am not 100% certain because I was never interested in getting a gun, but I am quite sure such a course is mandatory if you want to get a gun permit in Germany.

Remember, it is not the responsible people like you that make some degree of gun control necessary, it is the dangerous, violent people and those who act carelessly with their guns that cause most deaths.
 
BPSCG said:
If you're suggesting that more gun ownership = more gun deaths, may I just say "Switzerland"?

Bad comparison. In Switzerland, ordinary people (i.e. those having not been in the military) are subjected to gun control, variable from canton to canton . Gun ownership is limited to citizen having served in the military (usually assault rifles, carefully stored in their attic behind some other stuff to make sure they won't be misused or stolen, thus leading to a frantic last minute search everytime a military period is due :D ), people whose job justifies a special need for carrying a handgun, and hunters. "Civilian" gun owners are in a minority as people view protection of their safety as a task for the police forces and are certainly not encouraged to take it into their own hands given what happens in more gun-friendly countries.

Gun control is going to be strickter following a number of crimes and killings involving guns and assault rifles, none motivated by self-defense, and outside a minority of arms collectors and right-wing nuts, nobody is complaining about it.

Just so that you know, I work in Switzerland and have Swiss stepfather and brother ...
 
The Fool said:
No need to worry about children shooting each other with mommy's rape prevention gun eh?. You know the one...Its the one you want in all womens handbags, and presumably on their person around the house...and in the car when picking the kids up from school.... Its a very special sort of gun that promises only to go off if its pointed at a rapist....It refuses to work if its pointed at some kids head. Or the owner of the guns foot...or anyone else who may end up in front of it.....

Why weren't these kinds of things happening before the gun bans?
 
BPSCG said:

We bought a gun, not because we were frightened of our own government - we're not - but because we were easily able to visualize a scenario where terrorists wiped out the power grid in our nation's capital and in the ensuing confusion and panic, and before the militia could restore order, roving gangs of bad guys (rioters, mobs, call them what you will) might decide that our comfortably middle-class neighborhood presented a tempting target.

Maybe you should consider the probablility of you or a member of your family ever being killed or injured by a mob during a riot in your home street against the probablilty of you or a member of your family being killed or injured by that handgun you just purchased.... I think you may have decreased your anxiety levels but actually increased your danger levels.
 
MoeFaux said:
There's no doubt that I'm a political whackjob. No doubt.

Well, you are right about one thing at least. No if only we could get shanek to admit to being mentally handicapped....
 
The Fool said:

Maybe you should consider the probablility of you or a member of your family ever being killed or injured by a mob during a riot in your home street against the probablilty of you or a member of your family being killed or injured by that handgun you just purchased.... I think you may have decreased your anxiety levels but actually increased your danger levels.
Sure, that's certainly a possibility. And my wife and I discussed it and weighed the pros and cons and we believe that overall, we'd be safer with a gun in the house.

Note - I said we decided. Not some bureaucrat somewhere who reviewed our application and ruled on whether or not we had a real "need".
 
My belief system, for both atheism and politics, has mainly been influenced by the writings of Ayn Rand. There's no doubt that I'm a political whackjob.
How does having been influenced by Ayn Rand make one a whackjob? Atlas Shrugged, despite its faults as literature, strikes me as being uncommonly sensical. I must admit, I'm a bit surprised that it doesn't have more fans in this forum, given Rand's unyielding rationalism and atheism.
 
BPSCG said:
Note - I said we decided. Not some bureaucrat somewhere who reviewed our application and ruled on whether or not we had a real "need".

But, no doubt, you would like the bureaucrat to try to keep guns out of the hands of people with anger management problems? Or long lists of assault convictions? Or do these people deserve to decide for themselves too?

My opinion is you have just bought into your house the gun most likely to kill or seriously injure you or a member of your family. I am absolutely sure you don't see it that way and would never do anything to endanger your family... I urge you to investigate the probabilities and get rid of the damn thing.
 
shanek said:


Why weren't these kinds of things happening before the gun bans?
Sorry shane...what things? I know you believe that more guns=less gunshot wounds but I've got no Idea what you are getting at here??
 
The Fool said:
But, no doubt, you would like the bureaucrat to try to keep guns out of the hands of people with anger management problems?
I don't know what you mean by "anger management problems". I yell and curse at drivers whose navigation skills I disapprove of, but never in my wildest dreams would I shoot one of them. Okay, maybe in my wildest dreams... ;)
Or long lists of assault convictions? Or do these people deserve to decide for themselves too?
The guy with the long list of assault convictions can NOT legally buy a gun in this country. The problem is, he can very easily ILLEGALLY buy a gun.

My opinion
and an excellent one it is, too ;)

is you have just bought into your house the gun most likely to kill or seriously injure you or a member of your family. I am absolutely sure you don't see it that way and would never do anything to endanger your family... I urge you to investigate the probabilities and get rid of the damn thing.
We've also brought into our house the gun most likely to protect us from someone who would do us bodily harm. Until September 11, 2001, we believed the risk/reward scenario for having a gun tipped the scales against having a gun. But on that day, we realized that, for at least the third generation in a row, there are people out there who want to kill us, not for anything we have done, but simply for what we are. In our calculus, the scales have now tipped the other way. If you disapprove of guns in the house, fine, don't have one. And if you disapprove of a government that won't severly restrict your right to own one, then fine, don't live in that kind of country. Guess which kind of country I prefer.
 
The Fool said:

Maybe you should consider the probablility of you or a member of your family ever being killed or injured by a mob during a riot in your home street against the probablilty of you or a member of your family being killed or injured by that handgun you just purchased.

And maybe you should consider the possibility that that ratio is much higher than you think it is.
 
The Fool said:

Sorry shane...what things?

Whaddya mean, what things? The very things you were talking about in your post! The things you said were bound to happen if people were allowed to carry guns!
 
BPSCG said:
How does having been influenced by Ayn Rand make one a whackjob? Atlas Shrugged, despite its faults as literature, strikes me as being uncommonly sensical. I must admit, I'm a bit surprised that it doesn't have more fans in this forum, given Rand's unyielding rationalism and atheism.

I refer to myself as a political whackjob because what I believe is considered nuts. Just read what people have written in response to my initial post. How easy it was to become a pariah.

I love Ayn Rand. Atlas Shrugged changed my life. And obviously, limited my social circle.
 
MoeFaux said:


I refer to myself as a political whackjob because what I believe is considered nuts. Just read what people have written in response to my initial post. How easy it was to become a pariah.

I love Ayn Rand. Atlas Shrugged changed my life. And obviously, limited my social circle.

Come on Faux.

Trolls get what they deserve.

Flame baits about child molesters, cheap humor about buttering shanek, vague references to writers that represent the worse version the establishment...
 
Cleopatra said:


Come on Faux.

Trolls get what they deserve.

Flame baits about child molesters, cheap humor about buttering shanek, vague references to writers that represent the worse version the establishment...


Yup, you're right about everything. I'm putting up flame bait and I'm a troll. I'm sorry.:rolleyes:
 
What do you mean that you are sorry? Do you mean that you won't repeat it?

Well, we will see :)
 
Cleopatra said:
What do you mean that you are sorry? Do you mean that you won't repeat it?

Well, we will see :)

I didn't mean to waste your time or upset you, and I'm sorry. Should I put a warning up next time?
 

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