On personal liberties

[shanek]

The increasing security restrictions of the 70's came after a spate of hijackings by armed individuals and groups.

That just isn't true. Congress had been trying to pass a comprehensive gun ban since 1961, when they made carrying a concealed weapon on an airplane a misdemeanor. The hijackings prior to 1973 occured at a much lesser rate than the ones to follow it in the late 1970s. And those hijackings occured after 1969, when Congress made carrying a concealed firearm on a plane a felony. The antihijacking act in 1973 made the carrying of all firearms on airplanes, openly carried or otherwise, a felony.

I dimly remember there was a fad for hijacking airliners and taking them to Cuba. In other words the aircraft were hijacked even though there was nothing to stop other passengers going on board armed.

Except that they had to openly carry the weapon on their person; they couldn't keep it in their carry-on unseen. This meant that the hijackers could easily tell when they would or would not meet armed resistance.

Ever stop to think that the magazine of a handgun could contain cartidges filled with semtex or similar?

So could the spare battery compartment in my laptop. Your point?

 

[MoeFaux]

It matters to me; I'm a guy, and I like the ladies. My bread's only buttered on one side.

Preach it, brother. You keep fighting that good fight.

And I'm a girl, by the way. Don't you go worrying about where I'm putting your butter.

 

[shanek]

Preach it, brother. You keep fighting that good fight.

And I'm a girl, by the way. Don't you go worrying about where I'm putting your butter.

As intelligent as you obviously are, I'm sure you could butter me up anytime...

 

[MoeFaux]

As intelligent as you obviously are, I'm sure you could butter me up anytime...

I could make a joke in reference to Last Tango in Paris, but that would just be disturbing.
And we'd have to move the thread.

So Mr. Libertarian, will you be attending TAM2?

 

[shanek]

I could make a joke in reference to Last Tango in Paris, but that would just be disturbing.
And we'd have to move the thread.

So Mr. Libertarian, will you be attending TAM2?

If finances allow, yes.

 

[a_unique_person]

Ummmm....vote the b*stards out of office?

Everyone knows it's more fun if you shoot them first.

 

[Cleopatra]

And I'm a girl, by the way. Don't you go worrying about where I'm putting your butter

It's amazing to have a troll that has been an administrator of this forum...

 

[Cleopatra]

They're trying. Ballot access restrictions and restrictions on challengers running campaigns are stifling the ballot box option, and the loss of jury nullification plus the ability of the government to take people like José Padilla and hold them without charging them with a crime are stifling the second.

Cheap rhetory shanek that's why your words sounded that appealling to the Moe-troll-Faux--at least you found a wife who insists that knows where to butter you...

Gun ownership failed so far to protect the personal freedoms and if they'd ever been used, this would initiate a civil war. As you probably know civil wars end with further restrictions of personal freedoms and to compromises individuals wouldn't need to have made in the first place.

 

[The Fool]

I'm pro-gun.
All the anti-weapon laws are killing people. If there just one passenger had had a gun on one of the planes on 9/11, the Trade Towers would still be standing. There's no doubt about that.
And women, more than men, should be pro-gun. A woman with a gun will stop an assailant. It prevents rape.

So, your Idea of letting people carry guns onto planes...Hmmmmm.... Are you talking about armed guards on all planes, or just letting passengers pack heat?

No need to worry about children shooting each other with mommy's rape prevention gun eh?. You know the one...Its the one you want in all womens handbags, and presumably on their person around the house...and in the car when picking the kids up from school.... Its a very special sort of gun that promises only to go off if its pointed at a rapist....It refuses to work if its pointed at some kids head. Or the owner of the guns foot...or anyone else who may end up in front of it.....

I must admit that is the one thing I find really really strange about some people...Its the belief that if everyone packed bloody great big shooters everything would be calmer, safer and generally nicer...


Warning, Warning, Danger Will Robinson...another Gun thread has been sighted....

 

[Grammatron]

So, your Idea of letting people carry guns onto planes...Hmmmmm.... Are you talking about armed guards on all planes, or just letting passengers pack heat?

No need to worry about children shooting each other with mommy's rape prevention gun eh?. You know the one...Its the one you want in all womens handbags, and presumably on their person around the house...and in the car when picking the kids up from school.... Its a very special sort of gun that promises only to go off if its pointed at a rapist....It refuses to work if its pointed at some kids head. Or the owner of the guns foot...or anyone else who may end up in front of it.....

I must admit that is the one thing I find really really strange about some people...Its the belief that if everyone packed bloody great big shooters everything would be calmer, safer and generally nicer...


Warning, Warning, Danger Will Robinson...another Gun thread has been sighted....

[simpsons]Oh won't somebody think of the children!!![/simpsons]

Listen, lets ban cars while we at it, because we all know that children can get the keys from mommy's handbags. Because it's a very special kind of car that only starts when mommy is behind the wheel, and it certainly refuses to accidentally drive over other kids, or trees, or any one else who may end up in front of it.

I have to be honest with you; I find it really odd that some people find that personal transportations can make things calmer, safer and generally nicer.

I also find it odd how some people want personal freedoms, because obviously people are stupid and don't know anything about anything. The more we control their lives the better things get, I mean just look at history!

 

[LW]

See, here's the thing: guns protect invisibly. If pilots or anyone else had had guns on 9/11, a similar situation might have transpired, and it would be seen as a thwarted series of hijackings.

I emphasized the word might. I agree, having guns in the plane might have stopped the terrorists. This is different from saying that guns would have prevented the hijacks which was what I argued against.

 

[The Fool]

[simpsons]Oh won't somebody think of the children!!![/simpsons]

Listen, lets ban cars while we at it, because we all know that children can get the keys from mommy's handbags. Because it's a very special kind of car that only starts when mommy is behind the wheel, and it certainly refuses to accidentally drive over other kids, or trees, or any one else who may end up in front of it.

I have to be honest with you; I find it really odd that some people find that personal transportations can make things calmer, safer and generally nicer.

I also find it odd how some people want personal freedoms, because obviously people are stupid and don't know anything about anything. The more we control their lives the better things get, I mean just look at history!

Pretty standard strawman. I don't remember suggesting the banning of anything. Why am I constantly asked to justify the proposal to completely ban all guns?

Yes, I do think of the children. Children who live in households with guns all over the place are not safer. Despite all the cute stories we read on this forum about how Pa taught me everything I could possibly need to know about how to be safe with machines designed to kill people.... Remember, drunken domestic gunfights happen in other people's homes. Guns get stolen from other peoples homes, other peoples children shoot themselves.

I find it amusing how some posters think of themselves as against restrictions on gun ownership, but then they will tell you who they think shouldn't have guns.... Stupid and dangerous people should not have guns. Children should not be able to take guns to school, people who have been convicted of certain crimes (the crimes vary)..... They are gun control advocates just like me, the problem is that they cannot comprehend how their guns could possibly be a problem. Their guns are good guns that don't participate in accidental deaths or crimes. Their guns make things safer. Its other peoples guns that are the problem So where do all the undesirable people and criminals get their bad guns from? Any guess?
Don't you just love gun threads? Strawman heaven

Ok.....thats my Strawman anyone want to throw in any more?

 

[Sundog]

Cheap rhetory shanek that's why your words sounded that appealling to the Moe-troll-Faux--at least you found a wife who insists that knows where to butter you...

 

[Grammatron]

Pretty standard strawman. I don't remember suggesting the banning of anything. Why am I constantly asked to justify the proposal to completely ban all guns?

Yes, I do think of the children. Children who live in households with guns all over the place are not safer. Despite all the cute stories we read on this forum about how Pa taught me everything I could possibly need to know about how to be safe with machines designed to kill people.... Remember, drunken domestic gunfights happen in other people's homes. Guns get stolen from other peoples homes, other peoples children shoot themselves.

I find it amusing how some posters think of themselves as against restrictions on gun ownership, but then they will tell you who they think shouldn't have guns.... Stupid and dangerous people should not have guns. Children should not be able to take guns to school, people who have been convicted of certain crimes (the crimes vary)..... They are gun control advocates just like me, the problem is that they cannot comprehend how their guns could possibly be a problem. Their guns are good guns that don't participate in accidental deaths or crimes. Their guns make things safer. Its other peoples guns that are the problem So where do all the undesirable people and criminals get their bad guns from? Any guess?
Don't you just love gun threads? Strawman heaven

Ok.....thats my Strawman anyone want to throw in any more?

Strawman indeed.

By the way, don't be shy about using facts supported by evidence in your posts.

 

[MoeFaux]

Cleo, I can tell you're a woman who prefers margarine.

I did go off topic a bit, but, I was just so pleasantly surprised to find someone picking up where I left off that I couldn't help but throw in a little tease.

I don't think any sane Libertarian believes that there will ever be a government that allows guns on airplanes or letting people do as they wish. It's mainly about the ideas. A Libertarian's perfect world is based on a world filled with sane, respecting folk who would never harm another person. Anyone over the age of 10 knows that the world we live in is not such a world. But it's gradual suggestions that change things, one step at a time.
It's ludicrous that people should receive government handouts. So the Libertarian says, "no government handouts", that idea gets mixed in with all the others, and we come out somewhere in the middle.
It's fighting the good fight.
Now, I really am for gun rights. I do not own a gun. I don't own a gun because I haven't taken the proper training and therefore I don't think I'm qualified to own one. When I say that people should be allowed to have guns, I'm not just saying that any old fool should be toting a Magnum. I'm basing my idea of gun rights on a world where people are safe, sane, and consensual, where one knows not to harm another person, where people would know that learning everything about a gun before even firing it at a range is the right thing to do. That's not that way things are, but by throwing that idea in the mix, maybe someone who would go buy a gun will think, "I should know what I'm doing first".
My belief system, for both atheism and politics, has mainly been influenced by the writings of Ayn Rand. There's no doubt that I'm a political whackjob. No doubt. But, I don't fit into the mold of a democrat or a republican, and the basis of objectivism and libertarianism is free thought. I respect that very much. It sickens me that any government would say to one of my male friends that he can't sleep with his boyfriend. It's not right. I want people to make choices for themselves, to live their life their life in a sane, reasonable way while not harming others. I want people to be able to LIVE.
So when I say that I'm for guns, it's NOT just for women to pack heat to prevent rapes. It's for everyone. I want people to have that right, that freedom, and to use it wisely.

 

[The Fool]

Strawman indeed.

By the way, don't be shy about using facts supported by evidence in your posts.

Deal.......you first ok? You can start by listing all the gun controls you agree with. Then tell me how these don't infringe on the "personal freedoms" you believe you value above all else.

Then I can list all the gun controls I agree with and we can see how much common ground there is. After all, we both want to violate people's personal freedom to have a gun....Its just a matter of who and how much.

Having said that, there is always the possiblility that you value "personal freedom" so highly that you would allow anyone to buy guns from all night convenience stores no questions asked. Is this the case? After all, If I supposedly advocate complete restiction, you must be advocating absolutely no restriction????....

I suspect we are fellow gun control advocates. I'm sure we can reach common ground

 

[The Fool]

Now, I really am for gun rights.........

(some text clipped by me)

When I say that people should be allowed to have guns, I'm not just saying that any old fool should be toting a Magnum.

(some more text cliped by me)

So when I say that I'm for guns, it's NOT just for women to pack heat to prevent rapes. It's for everyone. I want people to have that right, that freedom, and to use it wisely.

Cool.....Now there are at least 3 gun control advocates here....Myself, Grammatron and now you too!

Although, I am a bit worried how you intend to determine who are the "old fools" who are not allowed guns and who are not "old fools" and are allowed to have guns. And this "wisdom" you should have to be allowed personal freedom with guns...how is that to be measured?

Together we can win over the "personal freedom above all else" crowd !!!!!! Lets get on with it!!!!!

ALL TOGETHER NOW!!!!
[chant]
Whadda we want?
Gun controls
when do we want it?
NOW!!!
[/chant]

 

[Cleopatra]

Cleo, I can tell you're a woman who prefers margarine.

For you I am just Cleopatra. You attempted to flame me using the topic of child molestation so, spare the sweet BS when addressing to me Ok?

Now let's see what makes you feel that exceptional ( apart from the proper use of butter):

A Libertarian's perfect world is based on a world filled with sane, respecting folk who would never harm another person.

This is part of a communist's, socialists's, republican, christian democrat's world too. So, maybe you are a communist and you don't know it.

Anyone over the age of 10 knows that the world we live in is not such a world. But it's gradual suggestions that change things, one step at a time.

By the moment that somebody becomes 10 starts learning History at school so, he can actually realize that society changes. It's the pro-gun people that want to keep the society to the era of the Founding Fathers.... Are you younger than 10 or you don't know of what you are talking about?

It's ludicrous that people should receive government handouts. So the Libertarian says, "no government handouts", that idea gets mixed in with all the others, and we come out somewhere in the middle.
It's fighting the good fight.

So, this is the reason that government gives you the guns: to go hunt.

When I say that people should be allowed to have guns, I'm not just saying that any old fool should be toting a Magnum.

Really? And how you are going to define that?

I'm basing my idea of gun rights on a world where people are safe, sane, and consensual, where one knows not to harm another person, where people would know that learning everything about a gun before even firing it at a range is the right thing to do.

So, you are basing your idea on a perfect world that --according to you-- if it existed we wouldn't need guns. Right!

That's not that way things are, but by throwing that idea in the mix, maybe someone who would go buy a gun will think, "I should know what I'm doing first".

Now you are asking us to count on good faith,you are asking us to trust society? Hey Faux in case you haven't noticed, these are the arguments of the pro-gun control people.

My belief system, for both atheism and politics, has mainly been influenced by the writings of Ayn Rand.

Now that explains everything!!!!

There's no doubt that I'm a political whackjob. No doubt. But, I don't fit into the mold of a democrat or a republican

Have you tried the butter mould?

It sickens me that any government would say to one of my male friends that he can't sleep with his boyfriend. It's not right. I want people to make choices for themselves, to live their life their life in a sane, reasonable way while not harming others. I want people to be able to LIVE.

Where have you been all these years Faux. I haven't read such original slogans before! Your posts are a life changing experience.

So when I say that I'm for guns, it's NOT just for women to pack heat to prevent rapes. It's for everyone. I want people to have that right, that freedom, and to use it wisely.

Faux wants people to life their life in a sane and reasonable way while not harming others therefore she is pro-guns.

You are a troll.

 

[Grammatron]

Deal.......you first ok? You can start by listing all the gun controls you agree with. Then tell me how these don't infringe on the "personal freedoms" you believe you value above all else.

Then I can list all the gun controls I agree with and we can see how much common ground there is. After all, we both want to violate people's personal freedom to have a gun....Its just a matter of who and how much.

Having said that, there is always the possiblility that you value "personal freedom" so highly that you would allow anyone to buy guns from all night convenience stores no questions asked. Is this the case? After all, If I supposedly advocate complete restiction, you must be advocating absolutely no restriction????....

I suspect we are fellow gun control advocates. I'm sure we can reach common ground

Good


Well I think it should be the same as cars, actually. If you want to use a gun on public property you need to pass a test to show you know how to use one and get a gun license. We can separate the licenses based on types of guns. This way the rights are still there just that guns are registered and licensed.

 

[MoeFaux]

For you I am just Cleopatra. You attempted to flame me using the topic of child molestation so, spare the sweet BS when addressing to me Ok?

Faux wants people to life their life in a sane and reasonable way while not harming others therefore she is pro-guns.

You are a troll.

Okay, you're right. I'm sorry.