On memes

[UndercoverElephant]

Is there a meme for atheism?
Is there a meme for believing in memes?

How would one answer these questions scientifically? (non-circularly,non-question-begging)

Is there a meme for believing in physicalism? (I think there just might be..... )

 

[Robin]

Is there a meme for atheism?
Is there a meme for believing in memes?

Richard Dawkins and Susan Blackmore both answered yes when they originally posed these questions.

How would one answer these questions scientifically? (non-circularly,non-question-begging)

One would first have to establish memes as a scientific discipline - something that has not been done. Memes are a conjecture, nothing more

Is there a meme for believing in physicalism? (I think there just might be..... )

Well if the Meme conjecture was correct then of course there would be. But what is your point?

 

[cyborg]

But what is your point?

To equate everyone who doesn't worship his ideas as materialistic fundies?

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Well, there sure as hell is a meme for dualism. Say mind, consciousness, feeling, experience, or any of a dozen other words, and people automatically assume some fuzzy dualistic definition.

~~ Paul

 

[scribble]

Is there a meme for the 0mniverse?


Robin - excellent post.

 

[Roboramma]

Geoff, no one has suggested that because something is a meme it is necessarily wrong. Rather I would suggest that because memes would be adapted to feel right, feeling right isn't a good way to judge whether or not a meme is in fact correct.

Oh... and what Robin said.

 

[FireGarden]

A meme is succesful for the same reason that a gene is succesful.... It is more likely to be copied than its competitors.

True/False are not linked to success.

 

[Darat]

If memes exist it would help explain the persistence of systems of thoughts, beliefs etc. that persist long after they've been proved (in the causal sense of the word) to be wrong.

But as far as I am aware memes haven't been proved to exist - have they?

 

[Jekyll]

If memes exist it would help explain the persistence of systems of thoughts, beliefs etc. that persist long after they've been proved (in the causal sense of the word) to be wrong.

But as far as I am aware memes haven't been proved to exist - have they?

Proof by definition, surely?

Ideas are capable of being transmitted person to person, they come into contact with other ideas and compete. Of course ideas with increased transmittability and robustness will become more prevalent.

It is just a different way of looking at reasoning from a sociological, rather than personal view point.

Now the question has anyone done anything useful/interesting with memes is a different one.

 

[cyborg]

But as far as I am aware memes haven't been proved to exist - have they?

Well as Jekyll points out you can't really prove the existence of a concept. It's just one way of describing these things people may or may not agree with. It seems like a useful one to me.

 

[Jekyll]

Well as Jekyll points out you can't really prove the existence of a concept. It's just one way of describing these things people may or may not agree with. It seems like a useful one to me.

As a clarification. I like the idea. I'm just not sure what can be done with it.

 

[cyborg]

I like the idea. I'm just not sure what can be done with it.

Well having a concept of economics has certainly been advantageous. There's no funamental existence for it but it allows us to describe the way we engage in trade and create formal structures for improving its efficiency and for attaining specific goals from trade. Without the concept trade still occured.

The concept of memes could be seen in the same way as a formalism for the concept of learning. Learning will occur regardless but having a formalism may allow us to improve its efficiency and attain specific goals.

 

[Beerina]

A meme is succesful for the same reason that a gene is succesful.... It is more likely to be copied than its competitors.

True/False are not linked to success.

And mutations that help it spread thus serve the same effect as for evolution of physical entities. And, of course, the more fantastical the modification, the more interesting it is.

I have a meme in my mind I haven't seen "out in the wild", and have been debating whether to release it to see if it grows, as an experiment.

 

[Jekyll]

The concept of memes could be seen in the same way as a formalism for the concept of learning. Learning will occur regardless but having a formalism may allow us to improve its efficiency and attain specific goals.

Hmm, I'm not sure how much cross over there is between memes propagating in the wild and structured class room learning.

My main gripe is that I'm yet to see research building on the ideas of memes and applying them in context. As soon as I start seeing some testable predictions coming out I'll be happy with thinking of it as a real field.

Edit: Ah, here we are it's starting to happen.
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/Papers/MemeOperationalization.pdf

 

[cyborg]

Hmm, I'm not sure how much cross over there is between memes propagating in the wild and structured class room learning.

Where did I say anything about structured class room learning? I specifically avoided that term for a reason; economic theory deals with situations where the participants don't actively engage in a particular structure as well.

 

[Jekyll]

Where did I say anything about structured class room learning? I specifically avoided that term for a reason; economic theory deals with situations where the participants don't actively engage in a particular structure as well.

My mistake, so what context are you thinking about?

 

[cyborg]

My mistake, so what context are you thinking about?

Well, any context where we can learn an idea; that is the crux of the mechanism by which a meme is said to propogate is it not? Generally that means anywhere really. Specifically we'd probably identify major places, such as institutionalised learning. Then the question becomes, if one where to develop an application for meme theory, just how these learning opportunities spread memes and how one might go about meme engineering.

 

[Roboramma]

This thread could easily be viewed as a forum for the spread of memes. Memes can be spread anywhere that people can communicate.

I think one thing that makes memes different from genes is that memes are Lamarkian...

 

[Darat]

Well as Jekyll points out you can't really prove the existence of a concept. It's just one way of describing these things people may or may not agree with. It seems like a useful one to me.

Proof by definition, surely?

Ideas are capable of being transmitted person to person, they come into contact with other ideas and compete. Of course ideas with increased transmittability and robustness will become more prevalent.

It is just a different way of looking at reasoning from a sociological, rather than personal view point.

Now the question has anyone done anything useful/interesting with memes is a different one.

But that wasn't quite what Dawkins described as a meme was it? He was suggesting (if I remember right) that "they" had something akin to a "gene", in other words they would be subject to the theory of evolution just like a gene is.

 

[Roboramma]

It seems to follow from the premise, though, doesn't it?

Ideas are spread from person to person.
Some ideas are better at being spread than others.
Some ideas are modified before being spread.
These changes can either make an idea more or less likely to be spread.
The changes that make an idea more likely to be spread will become more prevelant.

Of course, we also have to understand how ideas are spread, how they are changed, what makes one idea more likely to be spread than another etc. before we can say anything meaningful about memes.
The paper that Jekyl mentioned seems to be an attempt at answering some of those questions, anyway (though I haven't finished reading it yet...)