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On Consciousness

Is consciousness physical or metaphysical?


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Even altruism, as viewed from dna's agenda, is quite self-serving.
Oddly enough, one of the mammals that shows the highest degree of altruism is the vampire bat.

Cool stuff.

I don't know if it's the "highest" but this is a neat behavior. I wouldn't call it altruism, exactly, because reciprocation is demanded. I don't believe there's anything altruistic about homosexuality. It just happens.
 
I don't know if it's the "highest" but this is a neat behavior. I wouldn't call it altruism, exactly, because reciprocation is demanded. I don't believe there's anything altruistic about homosexuality. It just happens.

Well,
Defining altruism is a whole new thread.
Taking one's self out of the gene pool, whilst contributing to the overall well being of the species demonstrates altruism within the species, even if the individual is a victim of circumstance.

Increasingly, it becomes humane to not reproduce.
Yet, this flies in the face of the more normal Darwinian angle.

Maybe it takes a village to launch a handful of the latest version of the human being.
 
I don't think Steve001 was saying that consciousness can only arise in biological brains.

You are right, I reacted overly quickly, sorry Steve001

By the way, Mr Scott, you replied to a post of mine a while back which I seem to have ignored: I enjoyed your response and didn't disagree too much with it, but was intending to reply

Sorry for failing to do so :o I've somewhat lost enthusiasm for this thread lately, hopefully I'll come back to it, though
 
There's no real mechanism for survival of the species. In fact, genes can come up that, while advantageous to themselves, are disastrous to the species (sorry don't have time to google this point for y'all).

Thank you for saying this, the way people misunderstand evolution drives me crazy
 
Well,
Defining altruism is a whole new thread.
Taking one's self out of the gene pool, whilst contributing to the overall well being of the species demonstrates altruism within the species, even if the individual is a victim of circumstance.

Increasingly, it becomes humane to not reproduce.
Yet, this flies in the face of the more normal Darwinian angle.

Maybe it takes a village to launch a handful of the latest version of the human being.


I think the human species have progressed past survival of the fittest to survival of the wisest. Most evolution is happening as evolution of consciousness at the moment, with the main evolutionary hurdle being a common international language (eg, PoglishWP), from syntax to fully formed fluent language.

I'm not having kids until the worlds in a better state. Would not feel right bringing another child into the world if the world is just going to be a bitter disappointment to it for the rest of it's life, living in the rat race.
 
Evolution is really about survival of the gene. The features of consciousness result from genes that produce modules in our brain that, on balance, help reproduce those genes. For example, the module that identifies animals is a great advantage to the genes that produce it. Likewise, for the genes responsible for musical masterpieces, love, jealousy, and arguing on the Internet.


Without wanting to sound rude this is just wrong.

See my threads on this subject:
The Central Dogma
Epigenetics

The picture of a genetic makeup that fluctuates by the hour and minutes seems at odds with the public perception: That genes determine everything from our physical characteristics all the way to our behaviour. Many scientists seem to think that our geners form an immutable blueprint that our cells must forever follow. British research scientists and Oxford don Susan Greenfield says "the reductionist genetic train of thought fuels the currently highly fashionable concept of a gene for this or that"

Niles edridge in his book Why we do it, says "genes have been the dominant metaphor underlying all manner of human behaviour, from the most basic to animalistic, like sex, up to and including such esoterica as the practise of religion, the enjoyment of music, and the codification of laws and moral strictures... The media are besotted with genes... genes have for over half a century easily eclipsed the outside natural world as the primary driving force of evolution in the minds of evolutionary biologists." (ref)

There seems one problem with this legend: Its not true.

The percentage by which genetic predisposition effects (affects?) various conditions varies, but it is rarely 100%. The tools of our consciousness, including our beliefs, thoughts, intentions and faith, often seem to correlate much more strongly with our health, longevity, and happiness than our genes do. Larry dossey, MD, observes in his much cited publication Health perceptions and survival: do global evaluations of health status really predict mortality? "Several studies show that what one thinks about ones health is one of the most accurate predictors of longevity ever discovered". Studies show that a committed spiritual practise and faith can add many years to our lives, regardless of our genetic mix.

The main problem, out of many, with the central dogma is that number of genes in a human chromosome is insufficient to carry all the information required to create and run the human body. It isn't even a big enough number to code for the structure (let alone function) of one complex organ like the brain. Its also to small a number to account for the huge quantity of neutral connections in our bodies.

The basic idea to explain the aspects of us that genes can not, from what I've seen from reading various materials, is that changes in human consciousness produce changes in human bodies, right down to a genetic level (called Epigenetics [which unfortunately and confusingly is also used for a number of completely unrelated other gene related phenomenon]). As we think our thoughts and feel our feeling our bodies change and respond with a complex array of shifts, each thought releases a particular mixture of biochemicals in our organs and triggers genetic changes in our cells. Psychologist Ernest Rossi explores in his text The psychobiology of gene expression "how our subjective states of mind, consciously motivated behavior, and our perception of free will can modulate gene expression to optimize health" Nobel prize winner Eric Kandell MD believes that in future treatments "social influences will be biologically incorporated in the altered expressions of specific genes in specific nerve cells of specific areas of the brain"] Brain researchers Kemperman and Gage envision a future in which the regeneration of damaged neural networks is a cornerstone of medical treatment, and doctors prescriptions include "modulations of environmental or cognitive stimuli", and "alterations of physical activity", in other words, doctors in the future will prescribe, instead of (or in addition to) a drug, a particular therapeutic belief or thought, a positive feeling, an affirmative social activity.


There are far more complex and organic systems that work via epigenetics and circumvent the molecular mechanistic certainty of gene inheritance and expression.

There's no real mechanism for survival of the species. In fact, genes can come up that, while advantageous to themselves, are disastrous to the species (sorry don't have time to google this point for y'all).


I agree with this. Usually annoys me most when people think that just because a certain mutation could provide a huge advantage to humanity, since it has not happened yet evolution must be fake. *facepalm*

Evolution has no real goal or rule apart from that it works via natural selection. Environmental factors also play a large role in gene expression as has been found out recently.
 
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Most evolution is happening as evolution of consciousness at the moment
Really? Can you document any evolution for consciousness at all?

Traditionally, it is thought that most evolution in humans is in the area of food tolerance, and disease resistance.
 
Really? Can you document any evolution for consciousness at all?

Traditionally, it is thought that most evolution in humans is in the area of food tolerance, and disease resistance.

Dietary changes certainly played a part, as did disease resistance.

As for the evolution of consciousness as it relates to plants and diet I gave my views before.

http://www.cogsci.ecs.soton.ac.uk/cgi/psyc/newpsy?3.15
3.3. Analogously, speech understanding is handled by another existing module. It normally monitors the progress of plans, taking a sequence of events and packing it into an idea. Again, an immediate working memory is centrally involved in this process. Language could evolve quickly, on an evolutionary time scale, because it was made mostly out of old parts. The sequencing and comprehension mechanisms were already developed for the planning and monitoring of actions, respectively. Only the articulatory apparatus and perhaps a specialized grammatical ordering system (Bickerton, 1983; 1984) had to be added.

3.4. At this point a question arises whether planning and language share the same mechanism, or whether a new parallel planning mechanism evolved to specialize in language. There are many examples of the evolution of new functions by the doubling of genes, resulting in two copies of a morphological feature. Many cereal grains, for example, developed in this way. One of the copies is then free to evolve into something else. The open and flexible property of the planning mechanism, however, allows for language to be added to its functions with little or no change. The mechanism already had the capacity to handle many plans simultaneously, to organize each one, to put them into priority, and to handle plans for different kinds of actions.

3.5. Once the relationship between language and planning is articulated, a We are acutely aware of what we say and what is being said to us. This contrasts with nonlinguistic communications, such as human cries and laughs, which we produce without planning, as incidental concomitants of other activities or emotional states. We are capable of imitating these vocal outbursts, but we cannot deliberately produce them except in the proper context as part of other activities. Once the utterance occurs, whether linguistic or not, it is perceived like any other event. The essential difference is in the planning, not the perception. Perception of our nonlinguistic utterances puts us in touch with our emotions, while perception of our own language puts us in contact with our ideas.

Co-evolution of human consciousness and language
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11349426
Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2001 Apr;929:195-220.
This article recalls Cajal's brief mention of consciousness in the Textura as a function of the human brain quite distinct from reflex action, and discusses the view that human consciousness may share aspects of "animal awareness" with other species, but has its unique form because humans possess language. Three ingredients of a theory of the evolution of human consciousness are offered: the view that a précis of intended activity is necessarily formed in the brain of a human that communicates in a human way; the notion that such a précis constitutes consciousness; and a new theory of the evolution of human language based on the mirror system of monkeys and the role of communication by means of hand gestures as a stepping-stone to speech.


Evolution of Languages, Consciousness and Cultures
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=4274794&tag=1
Perlovsky, L.i. Harvard Univ, Cambridge Volume: 2 , Issue: 3
The knowledge instinct is a fundamental mechanism of the mind that drives evolution of higher cognitive functions. Neural modeling fields and dynamic logic describe it mathematically and relate to language, concepts, emotions, and behavior. Perception and cognition, consciousness and unconsciousness, are described, while overcoming past mathematical difficulties of modeling intelligence. The two main aspects of the knowledge instinct determining evolution are differentiation and synthesis. Differentiation proceeds from and unconscious states to more crisp and conscious, from less knowledge to more knowledge; it separates concepts from emotions, Its main mechanism is language. Synthesis strives to achieve unity and meaning of knowledge; it is necessary for resolving contradictions, concentrating will and for purposeful actions. Synthesis connects language and cognition. Its main mechanisms are emotionality of languages and the hierarchy of the mind. Differentiation and synthesis are in complex relationship of symbiosis and opposition. This Leads to complex dynamics of evolution of consciousness and languages. Its mathematical modeling predicts evolution of cultures. We discuss existing evidence and future research directions.
 
Dietary changes certainly played a part, as did disease resistance.

As for the evolution of consciousness as it relates to plants and diet I gave my views before.

http://www.cogsci.ecs.soton.ac.uk/cgi/psyc/newpsy?3.15


Co-evolution of human consciousness and language
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11349426
Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2001 Apr;929:195-220.



Evolution of Languages, Consciousness and Cultures
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=4274794&tag=1
Perlovsky, L.i. Harvard Univ, Cambridge Volume: 2 , Issue: 3
No doubt our consciousness has evolved along with our ability to formulate thoughts through language, but actual biological evolution, ie. a change of the hardware, does not seem to be discussed.
 
We rewire our brains due to our conscious thoughts and what neural connections we decide to create. Thanks to neuroplasticityWP and mindfulnessWP.
 
We rewire our brains due to our conscious thoughts and what neural connections we decide to create. Thanks to neuroplasticityWP and mindfulnessWP.
Very possible, but that is just a fancy way of saying that we learn. Do you have evidence that humans at birth are better equipped for such learning today than, say, 10,000 years ago?
 
Nope. I think if anything we have regressed as a species since that communal era. We have developed complex defense mechanism based egos, insatiable greed and monetary linearization of values and worth.

Doesn't take a genius to work out that the opposite characteristics of each of those terms is in fact better for people and the planet as a whole.
 
Nope. I think if anything we have regressed as a species since that communal era. We have developed complex defense mechanism based egos, insatiable greed and monetary linearization of values and worth.

Doesn't take a genius to work out that the opposite characteristics of each of those terms is in fact better for people and the planet as a whole.

Ah yes, if we could only go back to that happy Eden before evil came into the world.
 
You are right, I reacted overly quickly, sorry Steve001

By the way, Mr Scott, you replied to a post of mine a while back which I seem to have ignored: I enjoyed your response and didn't disagree too much with it, but was intending to reply

Sorry for failing to do so :o I've somewhat lost enthusiasm for this thread lately, hopefully I'll come back to it, though

Which one was that? Would like to read your reply and disagreement.
 
I see another goal post move in the near future.

Canadian scientists create a functioning, virtual brain

Spaun, which stands for Semantic Pointer Architecture Unified Network, has 2.5 million simulated neurons organized into subsystems to resemble the prefrontal cortex, basil ganglia, thalamus and other cognitive machinery in the brain. It also has a simulated eye that can see, and an arm that draws.

Spaun's cognition and behaviour is very basic, but it can learn patterns it has never seen before and use that knowledge to figure out the best answer to a question. "So it does learn,"
 
has 2.5 million simulated neurons organized into subsystems to resemble the prefrontal cortex, basil ganglia, thalamus and other cognitive machinery in the brain.
"Resemble" being the operative word here, and it'd be more accurate with "very distantly" before it.

"Functionally inspired by, but in no way even close to" would be better, actually.

Computational neuroscientists irritate the hell out of me.
 
"Resemble" being the operative word here, and it'd be more accurate with "very distantly" before it.

"Functionally inspired by, but in no way even close to" would be better, actually.

Computational neuroscientists irritate the hell out of me.

Can you back up your assertion that it's in no way even close?

The fact remains that, in cases where computers have difficulty with a task that's easy for us, an implementation on the computer that simulates a neural network has much less difficulty. This to me is clear evidence that the brain is computational in nature, and it's fair to extrapolate and conclude that when we achieve the necessary quantity of data processing power, human-like consciousness will emerge.

What is it about computational neuroscientists irritate the hell out of you? Is it because you don't like their conclusions?
 
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A while ago we debated here whether or not there were two separate consciousnesses in split brain patients. I assert there were. Dancing David I recall argued that since some connections between the hemispheres remained lower in the brain stem, there was still only one consciousness.

Famed neurologist Ramachandran agrees with me. Here's a cool short video from one of his talks, about when he found a split brain patient with a theist right side and atheist left side.

 
Can you back up your assertion that it's in no way even close?

I don't have to, they never backed up their assertion that it was.

The actual paper has much less bragging. It's just a prettied up ANN with the usual baseless assumptions; chiefly that the cerebral cortex, a phenomenally complicated computational system, can be represented by a single group of objects that only behave like neurons in the most degenerate cases. The systems-level organization also isn't remotely similar to what the brain does, in the same manner, but then at this point they never say it is.

Then all the documentation shows the ANN activity superimposed onto a brain with none of the above caveats that would otherwise lead you to realize it's a false equivocation.

Then the actual science journalism articles talk about it as an accurate model of the actual human brain.

Then I get my nerdrage on.
 
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