On Consciousness

[Zeuzzz]

What? No. When the machinery of the brain breaks down. That's Sacks' life work.

And he does a fine job of documenting such cases when the brain is rewired in ways that are no longer in line with the majorities. So they perceive the physical external world of music drastically differently.

 

[Zeuzzz]

[double post]

 

[Mr. Scott]

I have no qualms with you trying to model people as machines. It seems the computer minded thing to do, even if not the biological thing to do.

The general rule is what works for you intellectually, use. If you then try to generalize to most people then consciousness seems more like a fluid than logical number crunching machine, it always seeks the gravity of the most familiar. We addict not only drugs and habits but behavior patterns and ideological ways of thinking.

"People are not machines, but in all situations where they are given the opportunity, they will act like machines." --Ludwig von Bertalanffy^WP, founder of general systems theory

The yield of an idea is one of my favorite indicators of its correctness. There's been tremendous yield to modeling the brain as a machine. I'm not aware of any yield to modeling consciousness as "like a fluid."

To what use has seeing consciousness as "like a fluid" been applied, that would confirm it's correctness?

 

[Zeuzzz]

To what use has seeing consciousness as "like a fluid" been applied, that would confirm it's correctness?

Art, music, literature, theater, the magnificence of nature, mathematics, the human spirit, sex, the cosmos, friendship, history, imagination, dreams, oceans, mountains, love and the wonder of birth.

To name a few, some of which have good scientific data too.

 

[Aepervius]

Art, music, literature, theater, the magnificence of nature, mathematics, the human spirit, sex, the cosmos, friendship, history, imagination, dreams, oceans, mountains, love and the wonder of birth.

To name a few, some of which have good scientific data too.

If I said "you can model the consciousness like a solid" and you asked "evidence" and I answered you the same as you quote would you be satisfied ?

So you can imagine why i am about to tell you this is not evidence of the consciousness being akin to a fluid at all ?

 

[Zeuzzz]

Fluid was an analogy to fluid mathematics. Eddies form in a fluid simulation that uses the Navier Stokes equations, you can not predict the formation of an eddy current from the initial conditions, maths or equations or algorithms. The river just creates them randomly with enough time added to the equations, they are chaotic events. Which is seemingly analogous to what consciousness branches out into.

 

[Zeuzzz]

If I said "you can model the consciousness like a solid" and you asked "evidence" and I answered you the same as you quote would you be satisfied ?

Solid generally behave to the deterministic laws of physics to very high degrees, and doesn't exhibit neuroplasticity^WP like the brain being rewired by new and creative thoughts does. Neither do fluids, but the analogy still stands in term of emergent phenomenon.

 

[Mr. Scott]

Art, music, literature, theater, the magnificence of nature, mathematics, the human spirit, sex, the cosmos, friendship, history, imagination, dreams, oceans, mountains, love and the wonder of birth.

To name a few, some of which have good scientific data too.

Name just one and supply the good scientific data.

None of those would indicate the non-computational fluid model of consciousness is correct. (we can BTW model fluids in digital computers) A huge number of mechanical pieces working together can act much like a fluid. Oh, that is a fluid. Remember atoms? Neurons and synapses are the atoms of consciousness, and they are data processing units. Remember, there are 100 billion neurons and 100 trillion synapses in your brain. Each one is a simple data processing unit, not a magical fluid.

But, listing neat things the brain does has no bearing on exactly how it does it, or whether or not it does it by data processing.

Explain exactly how the fluid non-computational model of consciousness is critical to yield in the arts, sex, friendship, etc.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Name just one and supply the good scientific data.

The wonder of birth (Reproductive system^WP) and mathematics^WP.

The rest (to differing degrees) are conscious phenomenon that lack data (mountains and oceans definitely excluded)

 

[Aepervius]

Fluid was an analogy to fluid mathematics. Eddies form in a fluid simulation that uses the Navier Stokes equations, you can not predict the formation of an eddy current from the initial conditions, maths or equations or algorithms. The river just creates them randomly with enough time added to the equations, they are chaotic events. Which is seemingly analogous to what consciousness branches out into.

And I can say the same things about fart gas.

That does not mean consciousness smells.

 

[Zeuzzz]

That does not mean consciousness smells.

Can I nominate this?

What does smell then? How do you explain to someone what gone off milk smells like?

 

[Mr. Scott]

The wonder of birth (Reproductive system^WP) and mathematics^WP.

The rest (to differing degrees) are conscious phenomenon that lack data (mountains and oceans definitely excluded)

Doesn't support your claim. Sorry.

You missed the rest of my post. Maybe you can only deal with one sentence at a time, so I'll repeat, with highlights:

None of those would indicate the non-computational fluid model of consciousness is correct. (we can BTW model fluids in digital computers) A huge number of mechanical pieces working together can act much like a fluid. Oh, that is a fluid. Remember atoms? Neurons and synapses are the atoms of consciousness, and they are data processing units. Remember, there are 100 billion neurons and 100 trillion synapses in your brain. Each one is a simple data processing unit, not a magical fluid.

But, listing neat things the brain does has no bearing on exactly how it does it, or whether or not it does it by data processing.

Explain exactly how the fluid non-computational model of consciousness is critical to yield in the arts, sex, friendship, etc.

 

[Aepervius]

Can I nominate this?

What does smell then? How do you explain to someone what gone off milk smells like?

I was kinda hoping for a nom . Forget it.

What I mean is that you take example of ab initio process which will rapidely deviate and being chaotic. You can do the same with various mathematical model. Water/fluid is only one example. That is why I meant it is stupid to see it as fluid and compare to real fluid.

It simply belong to a very large class of process which depend strongly on the initial condition.

Heck my master pre-discussion (a small subject you present to show you can support a master -- not the master itself) was about two chemical equations and their evolutions from equilibrium depending on the initial concentration. The model , chaotic, and the various domain it described.

That's nothing new under the sun. but giving it fluidic poetic name does not change the fact that it is perfectely computable, and routinely done.

 

[quarky]

The atom might be a good metaphor of consciousness.
Initially, we tended to think of it as a mini-solar system, with little planets circling around a sun.
And then it began to morph into a cloud of probabilities and uncertainty.
And then we began to bust the wee-bits into even smaller bits, and it got more interesting.
The very act of observation affected the behavior of the observed particles.

Now, there's talk of strings, and simultaneous potentialities, even amongst physicists.

What I find missing in this discussion of consciousness, and its machine-like nature, is the initial impulse...the 'we' of that spark-plug.

What is the mechanical mechanism that occurs when you initiate a search of your memory? How many home runs did Roger Maris hit in 1961?

OK, go.

What just happened?
And how did it happen?

And who the hell is Roger Maris?

The aspect of consciousness (to me) that doesn't fit a purely mechanistic scenario, is the search engine. No, that's not quite right. Its the command to initiate the search engine. That's where it gets strange.

 

[dlorde]

I was a hippie and took psychedelics and studied and practiced expanded consciousness, meditation, etc., and still think consciousness is data processing.

Me too

 

[Zeuzzz]

Can we agree that some psychedelics dissolve mentally constructed neural circuitry?

Psychedelics can even dissolve mental barriers between you are you other half you did not know existed.

They can even dissolve barriers between you and your cat.

Hell, they can even dissolve barriers between you and your washing machine.

 

[dlorde]

Can we agree that some psychedelics dissolve mentally constructed neural circuitry?

Not literally, no. If it was metaphorical, you'd do better to say it directly; "mentally constructed neural circuitry" means what, exactly? in what sense can it be dissolved by a psychedelic?

Hell, they can even dissolve barriers between you and your washing machine.

If you have a barrier between you and your washing machine that needs dissolving, you're not using it enough.

 

[Mr. Scott]

Can we agree that some psychedelics dissolve mentally constructed neural circuitry?

Psychedelics can even dissolve mental barriers between you are you other half you did not know existed.

They can even dissolve barriers between you and your cat.

Hell, they can even dissolve barriers between you and your washing machine.

I'll agree they can make it SEEM LIKE these barriers have dissolved, but that does not mean they actually did dissolve. You need to get better at seeing the difference between reality and the impression of reality.

It's the most important lesson Randi has to teach us. He really understands it because he's a master stage magician. Magicians don't make a coin appear behind your ear. They make is SEEM LIKE it did, because they know how to take advantage of brain failures.

Psychedelics cause brain failures, making it SEEM LIKE you are one with your washing machine. Brain failures give us clues about how our mental machinery works, and that's terrific, but they are not evidence of a non-computational basis.

Oh, cool, Dennett's TED Talk "The Illusion of Consciousness" is online,and it's only 22 minutes.

I hope the highlighting isn't bothering people. I'm trying to help Zuezzz pick up the salient points.

 

[quarky]

I'll agree they can make it SEEM LIKE these barriers have dissolved, but that does not mean they actually did dissolve. You need to get better at seeing the difference between reality and the impression of reality.

It's the most important lesson Randi has to teach us. He really understands it because he's a master stage magician. Magicians don't make a coin appear behind your ear. They make is SEEM LIKE it did, because they know how to take advantage of brain failures.

Psychedelics cause brain failures, making it SEEM LIKE you are one with your washing machine. Brain failures give us clues about how our mental machinery works, and that's terrific, but they are not evidence of a non-computational basis.

Oh, cool, Dennett's TED Talk "The Illusion of Consciousness" is online,and it's only 22 minutes.

I hope the highlighting isn't bothering people. I'm trying to help Zuezzz pick up the salient points.

Dennet's talk was cool.
I love the optical illusion stuff, and the weird feed-back of it.
Even when you know you're brain is making up stuff and filling in the blanks, it still does it.
Being aware of that happening is wild.
Who is that person being aware of being unaware?

 

[lenny]

But, why not a general purpose computer with some very sophisticated programming?

It is not so much a question of the stuff, as a question of flexibility.

Digital computers can realise only a very very small fraction of the dynamics we understand;mathematically they only map one big integer into another big integer.

In short: they fall short well before normal "stuff" falls short.