• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

On Consciousness

Is consciousness physical or metaphysical?


  • Total voters
    94
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
So my previous comments directly about consciousness were moved to a locked thread in abandon all hope why exactly? Should I just re post them, since they were perfectly on the topic of consciousness and the continuing conversation of AI achieving consciousness, which is the very subject being discussed.
 
Penrose's Google Talk in Physics of Consciousness

I'm digesting this talk Penrose gave at Google about the physics of consciousness. I've already read his book "The Emperor's New Mind." Maybe next week I'll be ready to discuss it.

 
I'm digesting this talk Penrose gave at Google about the physics of consciousness. I've already read his book "The Emperor's New Mind." Maybe next week I'll be ready to discuss it.


Same I read the emperors new mind when I was very young, it's what got me interested in consciousness in the first place.

The more I think about consciousness the more I sympathise with Quarky and Mckennas world view on it. How on earth can you expect to explain consciousness if you have never played with your own states of it past dreaming and maybe an addictive intoxicant?

 
I was thinking how much the brain was more like a dynamic Programmable Logic ArrayWP than a standard sequential computer. Of course, sequential computing can emulate a PLA, but one as massively detailed as the human brain would be inefficient to implement that way because of our brain's colossal Parallel computingWP.

e.g. Blue GeneWP

The Blue Gene/P computer has been used to simulate approximately one percent of a human cerebral cortex, containing 1.6 billion neurons with approximately 9 trillion connections.
 
Our culture is not sterile and dead, science allows for mystery.

Large overcharacterizations are comforting yet often deluded.

And I know this is futile because I am sure you just have a summary and not an understanding, what exactly is the citation for this statement:
"t says a lot about the human state of consciousness, altered states of it, the words of one of the most prominent philosophers of science and a lot relating to the chaotic non linear idea that maths, as applied to set theory, does not apply to consciousness. "

And how exactly does it preclude mathematical models of consciousness. You have made a huge category error in thinking that all math is linear.

x2+y2=0


What is linear about that equation?
 
Same I read the emperors new mind when I was very young, it's what got me interested in consciousness in the first place.
Well, there's your problem.

The more I think about consciousness the more I sympathise with Quarky and Mckennas world view on it. How on earth can you expect to explain consciousness if you have never played with your own states of it past dreaming and maybe an addictive intoxicant?
Science.
 
But not the specific mystery some people need..


There is plenty of mystery, just little insight to be gained from taking hallucinogens. It shows that consciousness is a biological process of the brain, and can be quite entertaining, terrifying or stupid. Just like nominal brain function.
 
I was thinking how much the brain was more like a dynamic Programmable Logic ArrayWP than a standard sequential computer. Of course, sequential computing can emulate a PLA, but one as massively detailed as the human brain would be inefficient to implement that way because of our brain's colossal Parallel computingWP.

e.g. Blue GeneWP


The creative brain is conscious; not logical. It's non computational at core, which is why you can not predict a persons behavior, even if you can model a groups behavior and actions based on averages and statistics.

Why are you even bringing up AI and computational models in a thread about consciousness? Strong AI has no place in science.

If Stong AI ever produced software that was about as intelligent as we are then it should be able to reprogram and upgrade itself, leading to Recursive Self Improvement, nearly exponentially so.

Hyper intelligent software may not necessarily decide to support the continued existence of mankind, and would be extremely difficult to stop and shows risk to civilization, humans, and planet Earth. Frindely AI models are fundamentally against the laws of natural selection, and so is unlikely to be successful.

Berglas, Anthony (2008), Artificial Intelligence will Kill our Grandchildren

Abstract
There have been many exaggerated claims as to the power of Artificial Intelligence (AI), but there has also been real progress. Computers can drive cars across rough desert tracks, understand speech, and prove complex mathematical theorems.

It is difficult to predict future progress, but if a computer ever became about as good at programming computers as people are, then it could program a copy of itself. This would lead to an exponential rise in intelligence (now often referred to as the Singularity). And evolution suggests that a sufficiently powerful AI would probably destroy humanity.

This paper reviews technical progress in Artificial Intelligence and some philosophical issues and objections. It then describes the danger and proposes a radical solution, namely to limit the production of ever more powerful computers and so try to starve any AI of processing power. This is urgent, as computers are already almost powerful enough to host an artificial intelligence.


The problem is that the computers will never be conscious like we are, even if they are more intelligent. They will have no sympathy, empathy or care for our needs.

In terms of computational theory an AI researcher need not be a computationalist, because they might believe that computers can do things brains do noncomputationally. Perhaps calling computationalism a theory is not exactly right here. I think "dogma" "working hypthesis" or "working assumption" is more suitable. The evidence for computationalism is not overwhelming, and some even believe it has been refuted, by a priori arguments or empirical evidence.

Getting back to your previous comment about the Turing test for consciousness, Turing’s test is not necessarily relevant to the computational theory of consciousness. It doesn’t particularly help develop theoretical proposals, and it gets in the way of thinking about intelligent systems that obviously can’t pass the test. Somewhere in this thicket of possibilities there might be an artificial intelligence with an alien form of consciousness that could pretend to be conscious on our terms while knowing full well that it wasn’t. It could then pass the Turing Test by faking it. All this shows is that there is a slight possibility that the Turing Test could be good at detecting intelligence and not so good at detecting consciousness.
 
There is plenty of mystery, just little insight to be gained from taking hallucinogens. It shows that consciousness is a biological process of the brain, and can be quite entertaining, terrifying or stupid. Just like nominal brain function.

Yes, the effects of hallucinogens and other psychoactive agents are excellent evidence of the unity of mind and brain.
When you examine the neuropharmacology of compounds like psilocybin, mescaline, and LSD (not to mention the mood altering compounds and antipsychotics used by psychiatrists) and you realize that all those mental effects (the hallucinations, euphoria, sensory disturbances, OBE's etc.) are all the result of interfering with normal synaptic transmission how can you come to any conclusion other than that the mind is completely dependent on brain activity? It goes right along with the evidence of brain damage and brain stimulation.
 
There is plenty of mystery, just little insight to be gained from taking hallucinogens. It shows that consciousness is a biological process of the brain, and can be quite entertaining, terrifying or stupid. Just like nominal brain function.

I would have to agree with this.
Trouble is that it directly rules out such "mysteries" like an after life (for one example), and many can not accept that.
 
I would have to agree with this.
Trouble is that it directly rules out such "mysteries" like an after life (for one example), and many can not accept that.


Where on Earth does the afterlife come into this? :confused:

There is an existence and reality outside of logical scientific deductions. Science has proved a tremendously powerful way of skeptically interrogating the outside world, while ignoring the inner subjective one and marginalizing consciousness and personal experiences.

Studying the pharmacological profile of drugs does little to understand their subjective effects.

Purely out of curiosity, have you tried MDMA, psilocybin mushrooms or anything similar, for example? I think you will find them just as suitable ways to understand your humanness as having sex, or studying the science of the brain does.

If not then who are you to judge others experiences on them?
 
Zeuzzz, how does altering the color of a presentation of Hamlet and a video monitor enhance the understanding of hamlet. It is the content of the thoughts and experiences that matters.

I have been way past blasted on a hallucinogens many many times, in the past. If fact there was a year where I tripped on LSD three times a week.

The thoughts and insights that may have been gained during that are no different than those to be found whilst not intoxicated. The forms of those thoughts and perceptions were different, but the actual content can be obtained with out the drugs.
 
Where on Earth does the afterlife come into this? :confused:

Are you having trouble with your reading comprehension?
Or do you actually think I am referring to you in any specific way?

Science has indeed been an excellent tool to use to cut through nonsense and get as close to what actually is as possible.
Which is why so many don't like it.

If not then who are you to judge others experiences on them?

I don't care about your experiences.
 
I have been way past blasted on a hallucinogens many many times, in the past. If fact there was a year where I tripped on LSD three times a week.

The thoughts and insights that may have been gained during that are no different than those to be found whilst not intoxicated. The forms of those thoughts and perceptions were different, but the actual content can be obtained with out the drugs.


LSD is not an enlightening type of psychedelic that promotes thinking and open mindedness. It does little to break down cultural social norms or barriers; in fact it can add to isolation and confusing thoughts, and tends to be very mild on the visual front.

60mg of DMT or 5g of tried psilocybin mushrooms is when the pedal really hits the metal.

Science has indeed been an excellent tool to use to cut through nonsense and get as close to what actually is as possible.
Which is why so many don't like it.


It is indeed an excellent tool at cutting thourhg the nonsese. Which is why I love it.

But ignoring subjective experiences and consciousness is not how good science is going to proceed.

You should read the newest publications in the journal of psychopharmacology. They actually address the subjective experiences from a psychological viewpoint instead of purely focussing on the chemicals in question.

One of the journals leading experts recently took part in a documentary on channel four in the UK Drugs Live: The Ecstasy Trial - Drugs Live: The Ecstasy Trial which gave an unbiased view of it's subjective effects, and showed the positives to far outweigh the negatives, despite it's classification.

I don't care about your experiences.


Ok. Good for you.

So can I deduce from this you also don't care about any ones personal experiences? Or just mine?
 
Last edited:
LSD is not an enlightening type of psychedelic that promotes thinking and open mindedness. It does little to break down cultural social norms or barriers; in fact it can add to isolation and confusing thoughts, and tends to be very mild on the visual front.

60mg of DMT or 5g of tried psilocybin mushrooms is when the pedal really hits the metal.



If you used LSD or mushrooms then you obviously weren't paying attention, the effects are exactly the same. they just vary in duration.

You have no metrics on your alleged affects, just the usual Zeuzzz statements of opinion as though they are meaning full. "break down cultural social norms or barriers", how exactly did you determine that, what metric did you use? Or just more of your astoundingly narrow personal observations.

We all know you like DMT, but you are just making **** up.The use of psychoactive substances is heavily influenced by the cultural expectations of use and social context. In the god damn 60s and 70s is twas all about how LSD was used to "break down cultural social norms or barriers", so not only are you parochial, you are also very young and uniformed.

I think you truly need to broaden your reading and actually study something other than pop articles, have you read 'Flesh of the Gods' by Peter Furst (a nice if dated survey), have you actually read any critical anthropology? Do you know the critiques of Borofsky's Yanomami? My father went to grad school with Carlos Castaneda, do you know the difference between the first book and the fourth book of his, how one is sort of anthropology and the rest are fiction?

I mean seriously Zeuzzz, you seem so obsessed with your own personal perspective that even approaching your own thoughts critically seems beyond you, and therefore you have yet to even approach the gate to mystery.
 
Thanks for your input David.

Maybe you missed my previous posts on the science behind some of these psychedelics?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8492775#post8492775
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8418089#post8418089
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8443130#post8443130


Do you want more information about the cultural breakdown caused by MDMA in specific? I can address this either culturally or in terms of past memories and a clinical cure for post traumatic stress disorder. Or a drug of your choice ...

Edited by Locknar: 
Self-quotes removed, replaced with links; breach of rule 4, rule 6.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom