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On Consciousness

Is consciousness physical or metaphysical?


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I am going to respond to this in a way you seem to prefer…

1- I was responding to the post that claimed that


Notice the emphasis on “Any computer” and “any possible system”.
2- It is in fact quite an applicable comparison....even though you do not see why… see steps 3 to 9 for an explanation

3- Do you think that there is something WOO about solar systems and galaxies?

4- So why are they not replicable in a computer?

5- Is it something metaphysical about suns that we cannot replicate them in laptop simulations?

6- Or is it perhaps you do think that one day we might be able to simulate a fusion reactor inside some silicon running some code?

7- Are you able to conceive of why a computer is unable to replicate a fusion reaction?

8- If your answer to step 7 is yes.... then good... can you therefore comprehend that maybe there are things that might also make it not applicable for a computer to replicate consciousness due to limitations that despite YOU being incapable of comprehending might nevertheless be quite an obstacle?

9- Can you see how it is a false dichotomy to claim that either one believes that fusion reactions should be theoretically replicable in computers or else he must be a woo bagger?

A sufficiently detailed simulation of galaxy behaves as a galaxy within the simulation. A sufficiently detailed simulation of a fusion reaction behaves as a fusion reaction within the simulation. Something that behaves consciously within a simulation is conscious in my book; just as a chip-level simulated calculator is still a calculator, even though I must push simulated buttons with a mouse instead of real buttons with my fingers and read the results on a computer screen instead of an LCD display.
 
Robots smell to us like metal, plastic, grease, and phenolic circuit boards :wink:

That's sensory, not computational. I'm talking about quantum computers. There's no evidence for them in nerve cells.


Transcranial magnetic stimulation suggests that quantum events underlie signalling. Whether these are only significant when manifesting at a macro level, or whether we've only been able to observe them as such, I don't know.
 
Here's 2 problems I have:

A. There is a tendency amongst we humans to lump things into cozy categories. if someone (like me, for example) tosses out a conjecture in a discussion about something that is poorly understood, we are apt to be labeled. It hasn't happened in this thread, particularly, but it is very common. I find that tendency to be fundamentally non-scientific.

B. What i call 'arrogance', for lack of a better word, is a proclivity amongst the skeptical to focus on the fantastic; i.e., creating artificial consciousness before we know what consciousness is; discuss interstellar space travel before we know what's under the Antarctic ice cap or at the bottom of the ocean. I find that trend to be disturbing, or at least intellectually lethargic.

When i was in college, it was thought that biology was more or less done; we'd discovered all the species on the planet. Now, we have new kingdoms.
Lovelock and Penrose aren't the enemies. They are both quite brilliant, actually.
Their speculations are reasonable, regardless of their validity.

Human arrogance is a curse. The study of cetaceans, for instance, was nearly crushed by our knowledge of whaling. There was scant curiosity concerning other large brained mammals on this planet, except in matters of killing them. It took a grass roots movement to keep some whales around long enough to learn about them. And we still know almost nothing about wild whale behavior. We're barely curious. We're far more curious about new weapons. So i sing Kumbaya, I guess, while marveling at the species die-off as we hold tightly to the crown of creation, with little regard for any potential contenders.

Ah... don't get all sentimental on us quarky :-)

We know you love the soil, quarks and bicycles but whales is a new one. :-)

You may have feelings about the matter, but since these feelings are qualia they don't actually have an objective status. We can only objectively evaluate your expression of these feelings(your behavior) and all other "behavior" and not the feelings themselves. And based on this decide that your feelings on the matter are objectively relevant or not.This is no joke. It is apparently the objective scientific approach to justify saying that humans do "crazy irrational things" like save whales even though there is no objective rational reason to do it, its called heterophenomenologyWP.
Surprise surprise it's a word coined by our friend Mr consciousness explained, D.Dennett.
Of course as you pointed out the reason to save whales only becomes apparent after they were saved.
So no problem it was possible to come up with an objective reason eventually.
And it is now possible to simulate a world on a general purpose computer with objective rational reasons to save the whales.
What is obviously missing is that the real world does not wait for and is not dependent on our invented mathematical models/simulations based on historical data.
We as humans cannot wait either.
We have and will continue to survive because of our ability to act on our irrational subjective qualia in realtime(ala Westprog).

After the fact we learn about the correctness of our abilities and we accumulate objective data. The question remains as to the success of how we have used this data. In simulations it proves successful however in the real world the debate rages on. Evidence suggest that we have evolved qualia to give us the tools to survive in reality in realtime. There are certainly downsides to this ability, like all things have there upsides and their downsides. However the fact that we have survived so far suggest this ability has more upsides than downsides.
Their is a recent trend to dismiss as illusionary and ignore qualia and only focus on a recent development in human evolution, the rational thought which enables us to create virtual worlds based on predictable historical data were survival can be logically programmed.
The fact is we may not survive to enjoy the fruits of this experiment of living in a virtual world free from unpredictability since we remain completely and precariously dependent on the real unpredictable world.

It's ironic ain't it?

These discussions always remind me of Frank Tipler's book "The Physics of Immortality". The biggest challenge faced to achieve this ideal was dodging asteroid fields with a 4 square kilometer solar sail needed to reach the speeds required to colonies the universe fast enough before it started contracting to make it contract unevenly and in this way allow a supermachine sufficient space-time to have and infinite amount of thoughts thus giving the "impression" of immortality. I always laugh when I remember his ideas and then I get serious when I remember his appendices were these ideas were painstakingly mathematically proven.
Of course he was using historical data and since we now have more data we can conclude contraction is not going to happen and Franks logic is rubbish.
Apart from the practical difficulty of dodging asteroids with a very large mirror!!!!

Empirical evidence does not lie.
Talking theory based on historical data is the easy part.

Oh and my last comment is on those chess and jeopardy computers everyone is so impressed with.
I was never impressed with chess or any factual re-call game even when humans were good at them.
Get me a robot that can survive in the real world for 70 000 years without help from humans and I will start paying attention.
 
I think there may be another option:

"Consciousness is a kind of data processing and the brain is a machine that can be in principle replicated in other substrates, but general purpose computers are just not made of the right stuff."

I think that is the same as option #1, with the proviso that current general purpose computers are not adequate for the task.

I voted #1, on the premise that a computer will probably some day be built which is adequate for the task.

The idea that we could make a computer conscious may be as fanciful as thinking we can make trees conscious or that we can make lobsters achieve human-level consciousness.

No, that is something different. Trees and lobsters have the computational equipment they have (meaning zero and very little, respectively), and that is certainly not adequate for the task.

I think that sometimes people elide the idea that there is nothing non-physical about consciousness with the idea that consciousness can be easily replicated out of any old junk. But that might not be true.

No, the idea that old junk can do it is ridiculous, but the basic position that a computer capable of consciousness can be constructed does not imply that one has been constructed, or is possible with current technology.

Hans
 
Mr. Scott said:
It's like Pigliucci's assertion that consciousness is like photosynthesis, in that a computer could simulate photosynthesis, but it would fail to produce real sugar. Likewise, a computer that simulates consciousness would fail to produce real consciousness.

What, therefore, is the output of consciousness, the substance it produces, and what evidence is there that it's real?
Leumas said:
When you figure that out please go inform the scores of scientists working on the subject and don't forget to collect your Nobel Prize on the way.

In the meantime, please don’t let your incapacity to think of answers other than the ones you are able to think of drive you to precipitous fictive speculations.

BUT ABOVE ALL…. more importantly….STOP INSULTING people who disagree with you by attributing to them woo beliefs just because they do not have the same FAITH as you do in your FICTIVE SPECULATIONS about creating Pinocchios.


So just to be clear: do you think there is any such thing as "output of consciousness" or not?
 
Whatever?

Its a jive topic.

I simply must fight the inevitable 'humans only' crap regarding awareness and or consciousness.
Sure, because that's nonsense. But what you are saying here:

Consciousness might be a background energy field that we tap into, like radio receivers. Perhaps it is carried by the Higgs Boson or the graviton.
Maybe it precedes matter altogether.
Is also nonsense. It's completely impossible.

Speak for yourself dude! I, for one, am a fully endowed member of the PIG faith (Pixy Is God). Tell this guy what's what Pixy. Conscious planets! Twaddle.
What are you blithering about, annnnoid?
 
I am going to respond to this in a way you seem to prefer…

1- I was responding to the post that claimed that
Any, real or imagined. Computers are theoretically capable of simulating any possible system.

Notice the emphasis on “Any computer” and “any possible system”.
Yes. It is entirely correct.

3- Do you think that there is something WOO about solar systems and galaxies?
Question is irrelevant.

4- So why are they not replicable in a computer?
Why should they be?

5- Is it something metaphysical about suns that we cannot replicate them in laptop simulations?
No.

6- Or is it perhaps you do think that one day we might be able to simulate a fusion reactor inside some silicon running some code?
We can do that right now.

7- Are you able to conceive of why a computer is unable to replicate a fusion reaction?
I have no words adequate to encompass the depth of your confusion.

8- If your answer to step 7 is yes.... then good... can you therefore comprehend that maybe there are things that might also make it not applicable for a computer to replicate consciousness due to limitations that despite YOU being incapable of comprehending might nevertheless be quite an obstacle?
No. I'll further note that no-one who has raised such an objection has been able to do so coherently.

9- Can you see how it is a false dichotomy to claim that either one believes that fusion reactions should be theoretically replicable in computers or else he must be a woo bagger?
See 7.
 
I have no words adequate to encompass the depth of your confusion.


No. I'll further note that no-one who has raised such an objection has been able to do so coherently.

Do you remember my initial objection?

You may be able to simulate consciousness, but have you actually created a new individual instance of consciousness? Or an elaborate puppet on a string?

All the justifications put forward for simulated consciousness are not addressing consciousness at all, but rather intelligence.

Are you now saying that intelligence beyond a certain point of complexity requires consciousness as a constituent part?
 
Doesn't this come down to what emotions are programmed in?

That's part of the problem. Emotions seem to be required, in humans, to learn and categorize experiences.

However, it isn't what I'm getting at.

What I'm getting at is the idea that any system complex enough to be capable of consciousness is complex enough to get stuff wrong and have internal conflicts. Just consider the fact that conscious people do philosophy, and hardly any agreement exists there.

HAL's psychosis is explored (at least in Clarke's mind) as resulting from conflicting instructions: to be helpful, accurate, and informative, but also to conceal the purpose of the mission from the astronauts. Interesting idea. Maybe the bomb in Dark Star is a better exploration, with its focus on phenomenology, but I still have a bad taste in my mouth about how they ripped off the ending from Ray Bradbury.

What I'm getting at is this: Humans, who seem to be conscious, can do things that computers cannot, at least now. I don't know if they are related to emotions, but they may be related so similarly weird stuff, like empathy and self-awareness. It seems to me from a mathematical/logical perspective that self-awareness, which many people think is a sine qua non of consciousness, evolved as a means of multiplying intelligence. The ability to model something outside the brain in a similar way to modeling something inside the brain or the brain itself, including the whole mirror neuron thingie, seems to me a neat basis on which to build entire categories of learning and reasoning. Generalizing self-to-others and others-to-self is a powerful thing to do, and self-awareness may be a way to go about it.

But with this power comes the expense of making inappropriate generalizations, and do you want your computer to do that? Probably not. I see these commercials with people talking to Siri on their iPhone, and I am absolutely certain that's what people want, and I'm also certain that the commercials are largely fake or rely only on cases where it happens to get it right.

I'm also certain that the requirements are way beyond what you can expect another human being to do. People spend a hell of a lot of time correcting misunderstandings. Just consider what I'm trying to explain now, because I don't think I was understood. People do this all the time but they put up with it because of other things about interpersonal relationships (which do have to do with emotion).

But people seldom study that. I've studied a lot of linguistics, and it constantly irritated me how structural linguists ignore almost all of verbal communication, living in some idealized la-la land that doesn't even come close to modeling what they write in linguistics books and papers.

So, the question is, would you want a computer that is only as good as another human being at understanding you? I'm guessing that the answer would be no, and that this would prevent people from actually thinking along the lines of making a conscious machine. Either it would be too irritating or too scary, and people would flip out before they sat down and wrote the code.
 
Punshhh: my brain is made out of fatty protein tissue, which is made up of molecules, which are made up of atoms, which are made up of protons neutrons and electrons. If I were to organise these protons neutrons and electrons in some other fashion to construct an "artificial" brain, then provided it adequately reflected the complexity and power of my own brain and operated in a similar fashion, then that artificial brain would be just as conscious as you or me. It might be just a puppet on a string, if that's what you want to call it. But what makes you think you're so different?
 
Does consciousness even matter?

One of the posters above asked whether simulated consciousness is actual consciousness? Or is it merely a puppet on a stick?

It occurs to me the same question might be asked of us.

If a decision is made on a subconscious level, and the conscious mind is merely there to have us experience having made the decision, isn't our conscious mind also some sort of puppet on a stick?

Unless I've misunderstood something (not unlikely) recent research into consciousness found that using an MRI it was possible to predict a simply decision made by a person before s/he was aware of having made the choice.

So perhaps our own consciousness mind is similarly a puppet on a stick? Of course, something is still making that decision. I assume that at some fundamental level its nothing more than sophisticated chemistry.

If so, then an AI simulation of consciousness isn't out of the question.

What's more, I disagree with the poster who said we have to fully understand consciosness first. We might get there by accident. It has happened before.
 
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Punshhh: my brain is made out of fatty protein tissue, which is made up of molecules, which are made up of atoms, which are made up of protons neutrons and electrons. If I were to organise these protons neutrons and electrons in some other fashion to construct an "artificial" brain, then provided it adequately reflected the complexity and power of my own brain and operated in a similar fashion, then that artificial brain would be just as conscious as you or me. It might be just a puppet on a string, if that's what you want to call it. But what makes you think you're so different?

You have described a replica brain, fine I agree it may be conscious. A simulation is not a replica of a brain, it is a projected image on a screen, which can be interpreted by a viewer. The projection may be of a replica brain, but that brain would be in another box or a different part of the box from the simulation projector, not on the screen.
 
One of the posters above asked whether simulated consciousness is actual consciousness? Or is it merely a puppet on a stick?

It occurs to me the same question might be asked of us.

If a decision is made on a subconscious level, and the conscious mind is merely there to have us experience having made the decision, isn't our conscious mind also some sort of puppet on a stick?

Unless I've misunderstood something (not unlikely) recent research into consciousness found that using an MRI it was possible to predict a simply decision made by a person before s/he was aware of having made the choice.

So perhaps our own consciousness mind is similarly a puppet on a stick? Of course, something is still making that decision. I assume that at some fundamental level its nothing more than sophisticated chemistry.

If so, then an AI simulation of consciousness isn't out of the question.

What's more, I disagree with the poster who said we have to fully understand consciosness first. We might get there by accident. It has happened before.

A conscious puppet on a stick. Sounds about right.
 
So just to be clear: do you think there is any such thing as "output of consciousness" or not?

Q: How is a computer-simulated conscious brain NOT like computer-simulated photosynthesis?

A: The brain and a conscious computer both output the same thing: control signals for the body.

Computers routinely output control signals to animal and mechanical bodies. We can do this already.

Is there something else the brain outputs that machines could not?
 
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Hi Key,

what is your position? or do you not have a position as yet?


Consciousness - not defined enough to argue over. I'm inclined to consider it a notion akin to 'the soul'.

Humans / brains - purely physical / material, but it doesn't automatically follow that they could be recreated by intelligent design.
 
Consciousness - not defined enough to argue over. I'm inclined to consider it a notion akin to 'the soul'.
Yes the word soul does seem to refer to what is being discussed here.

Humans / brains - purely physical / material, but it doesn't automatically follow that they could be recreated by intelligent design.

Quite, however I would not rush to say that all materials have as yet been detected.

Perhaps the word spirit refers to something.
 
Oh and my last comment is on those chess and jeopardy computers everyone is so impressed with.
I was never impressed with chess or any factual re-call game even when humans were good at them.
Get me a robot that can survive in the real world for 70 000 years without help from humans and I will start paying attention.

I love that kind of goal post move. Why the 70,000 year figure?

!Kaggen, do you believe your working Bokashi bucket is conscious?
 
You have described a replica brain, fine I agree it may be conscious. A simulation is not a replica of a brain, it is a projected image on a screen, which can be interpreted by a viewer. The projection may be of a replica brain, but that brain would be in another box or a different part of the box from the simulation projector, not on the screen.

If the simulation is capable of doing the same things as a brain (ie. complex intelligence), then it is a "replica brain".
 
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