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On Consciousness

Is consciousness physical or metaphysical?


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Your assertion that memory has been dismissed as the cause of consciousness is flat wrong.

No, it's not. In fact, it's perfectly correct.

If you look at graduate texts in neurobiology, for example, you will find that they consistently treat memory and consciousness separately. Ditto perception, attention, and imagination v. consciousness.

It is now known that memory is a function which is involved in both conscious and non-conscious processes.

I'd be happy to discuss this in more detail with you if you like (assuming I get time to return to the forum).
 
A lot of "ingredients" goes into consciousness. There is no doubt that memory is an important one. But, it is not the only one.

There must also exist systems that report on the current (as close as possible) state of other bodily systems, and a section or two of bodily mapping in which a focus of thought can be sustained for moments of time.
Among other things.

Hi, Wowbagger. Long time no vidi.

What you say is correct, but I think you're missing the central point.

Bodily mapping and focus are also "ingredients" of various non-conscious processes, as well.

The calling card of consciousness is the phenomenology, and the accompanying "signature" electro-chemical processes that accompany it.

Phenomenology is the defining quality of consciousness.

You can set up all sorts of machines to respond differently to different wavelengths of light, for example. But in doing so, you don't inherently generate any kind of experience of color. And that last bit is the trick.
 
Hi, Wowbagger. Long time no vidi.

What you say is correct, but I think you're missing the central point.

Bodily mapping and focus are also "ingredients" of various non-conscious processes, as well.

The calling card of consciousness is the phenomenology, and the accompanying "signature" electro-chemical processes that accompany it.

Phenomenology is the defining quality of consciousness.

You can set up all sorts of machines to respond differently to different wavelengths of light, for example. But in doing so, you don't inherently generate any kind of experience of color. And that last bit is the trick.

yes
 
Bodily mapping and focus are also "ingredients" of various non-conscious processes, as well.
Yes, I suppose we can add some clarity to this.

Consciousness is a particular kind of emergent property of those things, (plus a few I didn't mention), that happens to result in a sustained sense of awareness.

Flour, water, and sugar are ingredients in cake, as well as other things. But, cake is a particular kind of recipe that uses those ingredients, among a few other things I didn't mention.
 
My knowledge on consciousness stems from many years of research and thinking about it. I approached the concept of consciousness from many different perspectives, analyzing how sensory, memory, vision, emotions, cognitive development, sensory deprivation, neural physics, and a myriad of brain damage effects, to formulate my perception of consciousness. What I discovered is that memory defines consciousness at its most fundamental level.

Welcome Mark; may I ask where you did this research, and did you publish any of it? how does your interpretation of consciousness compare with the Integrated Information theory?

I have read the contents of the web site you linked to, and it seems to be a collection of speculative opinion pieces without reference to any current research or detailed knowledge of the fields involved - would I be right to think the site hasn't been updated for quite some time?
 
I would define life differently to consciousness. Both are intrinsically hard to define, but I've had a go.

...
This leads to the conception of two opposing arrows of time: the behavior of inanimate matter pointing towards entropy increase and therefore disorder increase, and the behavior of biological systems pointing the other way by building increasingly complex structures of order.
...



In terms of consciousness [especially human consciousness] I would say it's the ability of things to live in the present moment by drawing from past experience, and also to predict future events based on past experience. In the case of humans we seem to have evolved highly complex (compared to other life on Earth) memory recall of past experience from which to consciously draw from, making our consciousness more effective in numerous way than other Earth based animal life. Also the seeking of altered states of consciousness in our species has likely opened the doors of perception far wider than other life. However since we lack the skill-set and language to communicate with other species and nature in general adequately it is hard to make such comparisons fully scientifically objective at this point in time.
Um Zeuzzz, as usual you are missing something, living organisms do not defy entropy, by definition that is impossible.

When you digest something , what happens to it? It is more ordered o r less ordered after you eat it?

Why does your body radiate heat?

Life can not do anything but cooperate with entropy.

Duh
 
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Dear Forum,

Thank you for all the feedback. It looks like this is going to be a lively discussion.

dlorde asked, where did I do the research, and did I publish any of it? As I stated in my earlier post, "My knowledge on consciousness stems from many years of research and thinking about it." Actually, all my knowledge regardless of the 'field of study' stems from research and thinking, accomplished in my home office. When I am researching a particular subject, I collect as much data that is available, mostly via the internet these days, but in earlier years I would use libraries, pester university professors with question they often could not answer, and make many phone calls to authors, researchers, and any other sources that potentially had/have useful information. You could call my office a mini university connected to the world.

The collection of data is tricky business. More often than not, data is skewed in favor of prevailing views. Statistical analyses, such as polling or pharmaceutical trials, are excellent examples of routinely skewed data. You have to take data apart separating the facts from the rhetoric. Often, what is missing in the data is more significant than what is offered. The difference between superficial data and definitive data is an arguest task of separating the wheat from the chaff. Opinions are often presented as facts. A good researcher spends a great deal of time deciphering what the real facts are before building a conceptual view. Modern university research is often more concern with fulfilling grant expectations and maintaining reputations than it is getting to the truth of the matter. Another good example of skewed data coming out of universities is in cosmology; the Big Bang concept is portrayed as factual, but there are no actual facts to support it. Most physicists present the concept of the Big Bang as factual, omitting that they have no supportive facts to substantiate it. They use opinions and elusive equations as a supplement or simulation of facts. In academia, invested belief can often be more important than reality, such as religion demonstrates.

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As to your statement and subsequent questions, ((I have read the contents of the web site you linked to, and it seems to be a collection of speculative opinion pieces without reference to any current research or detailed knowledge or the fields involved - would I be right to think the site hasn't been updated for quite some time?)) No, it has not been updated for some time. I am in the middle of rewriting "Protospace" and "Dimensional Symmetry Field Formations," and when done, I will update my website. As to your assertion that my articles are "speculative opinions without detailed knowledge of the fields involved," yes, they are certainly speculative opinions and well outside the box of orthodox conceptions. As to my level of scientific knowledge, that remains to be seen...

My synopsis were only intended to start conversation, they were not intended as research papers. However, I thought the article concerning the neural physics of light and colors was self-proving. Could you be more specific as to what part you believe is naive or lacking in supportive data? I pointblank state that light and colors do not really exist, that they are only a neural illusion; if I have made a factual error, I would very much appreciate you pointing it out to me. My intension in offering that article was to enhance the discussion of consciousness, by demonstrate that our brains create the sensations of light and colors; and if our brains can do that with invisible electromagnetic energy - then it could aid in understands how consciousness constructs memory. I agree that these are not simple concepts; I am sure that you were never exposed to the idea that light and colors do not exist outside our minds, it takes time and thought to digest and comprehend new concepts. I would ask that you re-read, a bit more slowly for comprehension, the article on light and colors, and look for factual errors if they exist, and then post those comments for review. Making connotative suggestions is difficult for me to form a response upon.

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Back on topic "what is consciousness."

Let me define what I mean when I talk about consciousness. Consciousness is the internal awareness of self, the sensory awareness of the environment around us, and our intentional reaction towards environmental stimulus. Consciousness does not include autonomic activities, genes, or the elusive subconscious. Consciousness is just the physical act of awareness and reaction.

When we are born, we have no environmental memory. Even though we are born appearing awake, we are not aware of our self. It appears that we are conscious because we wiggle and cry, but we are not. Our wiggles and cries are autonomic responses caused by the shocking sensations of birth: canal pressure, pain, light, temperature, sounds, and being handled and flung about, activates reflex responses. While all this is occurring, our brain is recording memory, learning to differentiate light from dark, noise from silence, warm from cold, pain from pleasure, and so on. The synaptic grow of a newborn is a hundred times faster than an adult. When a newborn sees a "line" for the first time, it has no preexisting memory, meaning that it has no relationship to anything to give it definition; the experience is stored without connectivity to any definition. When a perpendicular line is experienced, now a relationship to another line can start to formulate a definition. As more lines are experienced in different lengths, widths and angles, the collective definition of lines expands. The same is true for every type of sensory stimulus the newborn experiences whether it is light, sound, or smell etc. In the first 72 hours, a newborn will make more synaptic connections than an adult will in a year.

Babies are born with autonomic memory (genetic instinct) to suckle, swallow, hold their breath, and cry. Everything else - they learn as they go through the experience of life. After a few weeks of sensory experiences, newborns have acquired enough experience to form limited associations and definitions to develop a rudimentary sense of consciousness. As their consciousness grows, they learn to interact with the environment, such as intentionally crying for attention. The more they learn to interact with the environment, the more conscious they become. The key to their consciousness is interactive memory. The more memory (experience) they have - the more interactive awareness/consciousness they develop.

Interactive memory is the essence of intelligence. The more knowledge (memory) you have in any particular subject, the more intelligent/conscious you become in that subject. No matter how you approach the concept of consciousness, every part of consciousness is dependent on memory to function. There is no thought you can have, or intentional action you can perform - that is not memory driven.

If you think about it, what part of your consciousness does not have memory causing it? Seeing a word requires visual memory, recognizing a word requires vocabulary memory, writing the word requires spelling memory, speaking the word requires verbal memory, and combining the word as part of a sentence requires syntax memory. There is nothing in your thoughts that is not memory based; every word, image, or association is absolutely constructed from interactive memory. You cannot write a word without thinking about it and using learned motor memory skills to write it, and you cannot write the word without using learned vocabulary, spelling, and syntax memory. The primary function of consciousness integrates massive amounts of different types of memory into an organized sense of real-time awareness and response. Is there any characteristic of consciousness that is not memory based?

Presently, cognitive scientists do not see memory as the sole cause of consciousness. They do see it as playing an important role, but not causing the phenomena. Ultimately, they will have no choice but to except that memory is the rudimentary cause of consciousness, because there is no identifiable part of consciousness that is not completely dependent on memory to function; it is what it is. Memory is easy to take for granted because you know what you know without effort. If you think about thinking, everything that you think is coming from memory. What would your thoughts be if they had no memory to work with? Memory is a definition of "what it is." Without memory, there is no definition, and without definition, consciousness cannot exist. Consciousness is an interactive sense of what is going on around you. It is a process of intergrading environmental stimulus with memory to form a reaction to the environment at large. No memory/definition, results in no reaction. A non-reactive state is a non-conscious state. Everything conscious about you operates from memory; your walking, talking, thinking, and reading are memory dependent functions.

If I go any further in this post, I will be writing an eBook.

I look forwards to your thoughts and feedback,

Sincerely, Mark Maloney
 
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P.S. I wanted to offer this website for documentary programming "topdocumentaryfilms.com/." It has thousands of free documentaries you can watch to learn a broad variety of ideas and information about the world. They also have a few documentaries concerning consciousness from various perspectives. You may find them informative...
 
The collection of data is tricky business. More often than not, data is skewed in favor of prevailing views. Statistical analyses, such as polling or pharmaceutical trials, are excellent examples of routinely skewed data. You have to take data apart separating the facts from the rhetoric. Often, what is missing in the data is more significant than what is offered. The difference between superficial data and definitive data is an arguest task of separating the wheat from the chaff. Opinions are often presented as facts. A good researcher spends a great deal of time deciphering what the real facts are before building a conceptual view. Modern university research is often more concern with fulfilling grant expectations and maintaining reputations than it is getting to the truth of the matter.
Yes, there is some truth in this; although to establish how often opinions are presented as facts or university research is more about grants & reputations than getting to the 'truth', we'd have to collect some data, and that's a tricky business ;)

Another good example of skewed data coming out of universities is in cosmology; the Big Bang concept is portrayed as factual, but there are no actual facts to support it. Most physicists present the concept of the Big Bang as factual, omitting that they have no supportive facts to substantiate it. They use opinions and elusive equations as a supplement or simulation of facts.
I don't agree. I suggest most physicists consider the Big Bang to be the consensus best current explanation for our observations, not by any means a fact. I agree that this isn't always made clear to the greater public, but I suspect that's more because scientists take 'best current explanation' as a given, so aren't always explicit about it.

As to your assertion that my articles are "speculative opinions without detailed knowledge of the fields involved,"
Not quite - I said the articles made no reference to current research or detailed knowledge of the fields involved.

As to my level of scientific knowledge, that remains to be seen...
Quite; I only commented on the article content.

I thought the article concerning the neural physics of light and colors was self-proving. Could you be more specific as to what part you believe is naive or lacking in supportive data?
Well, since you ask, it's a mostly uncontroversial introduction to vision. I did think that this is a little confused: "Since electromagnetic energy is invisible, in the absence of actual illumination, light, color, translucence, and perspective, the universe is in reality opaque black. The reality is that we spend our lives immersed within blackness; filled with black objects that are colliding, reflecting, absorbing, and emitting invisible energy waves/photons". Black is a colour too, you know, and 'opaque' is a measure of impenetrability to light. Absence of light doesn't imply opacity.

... I am sure that you were never exposed to the idea that light and colors do not exist outside our minds
I'm not sure what you mean by 'never exposed' - the idea has been around since the ancient Greeks...

I would ask that you re-read, a bit more slowly for comprehension, the article on light and colors, and look for factual errors if they exist, and then post those comments for review.
As I say, it's basic, uncontroversial stuff, although vague hand-waving like this doesn't really help: "Most animals use ocular sensory to generate a pictorial image".

Oh, I also found the presentation (large white font on multicoloured background) unnecessarily distracting.

Consciousness is the internal awareness of self, the sensory awareness of the environment around us, and our intentional reaction towards environmental stimulus.
I sense some circularity in that definition - what do you mean by, 'internal awareness', and 'intentional reaction'?

Consciousness is just the physical act of awareness and reaction.
Isn't a physical act of awareness simply a response to a stimulus?
Wouldn't this imply that any creature that responds to its environment is conscious?

Interactive memory is the essence of intelligent.
This sounds a little like 'integrated information' - you didn't respond to my previous question, "how does your interpretation of consciousness compare with the Integrated Information theory?" - could you clarify?
 
Dear dlorde,

Thank you for your response, I do agree that I could learn to write better, writing is an ongoing process for me. As far as the background images in my synopsis, I too have trouble at times with them; when I update my website, I will consider changing the background to something less distracting. I initially used the backgrounds to augment the subject. You know, a background of colors to go with a discussion of colors... seemed appropriate at the time.

How do you use the "quote" sections that everyone lists, I would like to use that format instead of using highlights. I am quite new to posting. The only experience I have is with my website, and I only had one discussion... listed in the archives. I learn fairly well, I will figure it out given a bit of help and time.

You asked, "Isn't a physical act of awareness simply a response to a stimulus? Yes it is, but it requires background memory to know how to formulate the response. If someone throws a ball at you from outside your direct vision, and your peripheral vision detects it, that is an autonomic response; but it still needs memory to coordinate your response. If they throw the ball directly in front of you and you see it coming, catching it is an intentional response. What do you suppose would happen if you throw a ball at a newborn?

What I mean by internal awareness is self-aware.

As far as integrated information, is that not what I have been discussing in part? I do not use other people's work other than researching their data; I formulate my own conclusions. I do not rely on other people's research papers to/in support my own work. My work stands on the words I use to convey my understanding of any given subject. When I am inadvertently vague, asking what I mean or to further elaborate is a quick solution to that issue. As I said, I am still learning to write comprehensibly.

Do not get me started with what physicists and cosmologists claim to know, while conveniently forgetting to tell what they do not know, which would discredit what they claim to know. That discussion should have its own thread.

As to your comment that I conceptually misused "opacity," after reading your reasoning, I agree. I will change it when I update my website.

Looking forwards to reading more of your comments,

Sincerely, Mark Maloney
 
How do you use the "quote" sections that everyone lists, I would like to use that format instead of using highlights.
You can click the 'Quote' button on the post you wish to quote. This will create a post containing the quoted post's contents inside quote 'tags', e.g:
dlorde;8967357 said:
... quoted text ...
. You can edit the quoted text and split it up into separate quoted sections by putting each section in
... quoted text ...
tags.

You can quote multiple posts inside one post by clicking on the '"' button on each, then click the 'Quote' button of the last post to quote, and a new post will be created with all the other posts quoted in it.

You asked, "Isn't a physical act of awareness simply a response to a stimulus? Yes it is, but it requires background memory to know how to formulate the response.
No it doesn't. Consider reflexes; consider the tropisms of plants, etc.

What do you suppose would happen if you throw a ball at a newborn?
You'd be arrested.

What I mean by internal awareness is self-aware.
That was my point - self-awareness is a feature of consciousness; the definition is circular.

As far as integrated information, is that not what I have been discussing in part?
I'm talking about the Integrated Information theory of consciousness. I assumed that someone who'd researched the subject for years would be familiar with the leading theories of consciousness.

I do not use other people's work other than researching their data; I formulate my own conclusions. I do not rely on other people's research papers to/in support my own work.
Ah, OK. That explains a lot. Formulating your own conclusions is what we all hope to do, but by ignoring other people's ideas, don't you miss out on insights, knowledge, and expertise that could assist you in formulating your own conclusions?

Do not get me started with what physicists and cosmologists claim to know, while conveniently forgetting to tell what they do not know, which would discredit what they claim to know. That discussion should have its own thread.
You're welcome to start one.
 
Dear Forum, dlorde,

Question: Do you think that visible light and colors exist outside our consciousness? That is, are light and colors more than just a neural illusion/hallucination.

Sincerely, Mark Maloney
 
Dear Forum, dlorde,

Question: Do you think that visible light and colors exist outside our consciousness? That is, are light and colors more than just a neural illusion/hallucination.

Sincerely, Mark Maloney

My, answer..
Yes electromagnetic radiation of a wide variety of frequencies (aka light) exist outside our conciousness.
Is that what you meant?
 
Dear Forum, dlorde,

Question: Do you think that visible light and colors exist outside our consciousness? That is, are light and colors more than just a neural illusion/hallucination.

Sincerely, Mark Maloney

Colors are a presentation of the visual cortex, partly based upon the interaction of photons with the fovea in the retina.

EM radiation in the 'visble' range seems to exist.
 
You asked, "Isn't a physical act of awareness simply a response to a stimulus? Yes it is, but it requires background memory to know how to formulate the response. If someone throws a ball at you from outside your direct vision, and your peripheral vision detects it, that is an autonomic response; but it still needs memory to coordinate your response. If they throw the ball directly in front of you and you see it coming, catching it is an intentional response. What do you suppose would happen if you throw a ball at a newborn?

I think you need to break down the different forms of memory, reflexive responses are not normally considered part of memory , even if they are conditioned and trained responses.

An athlete training is not generally considered to be a memory event, except for the cognitive parts where they have rehearsed what the play book says or what the names of the other athletes are, or the other athletes common strategies. Generally the training of motor function is not considered part of 'memory', although I am sure it can be used in some contexts. memory generally refers to the recovery of information of some sort, it is usually unrelated to motor activities in their barest form.

I am not sure a pigeon or rat responding to blinking lights is using memory either. Jeff Corey will correct me if I state something silly.
 
Question: Do you think that visible light and colors exist outside our consciousness? That is, are light and colors more than just a neural illusion/hallucination.
Light is externally real - as has been said it's a common name for a range of the electromagnetic spectrum that includes the visible frequencies. Colours are the perceptual mappings for the visible frequencies of light. You obviously know all this, I really don't think semantic games will help the discussion.

As for being neural illusions or hallucinations, no, I think not - not in any reasonable meaning of the words. I think I see what you mean - our perceptual world is a construct. But an illusion is a false perception. You can certainly have false perceptions of light and colours - they're called optical illusions. They are explicitly distinguished from 'normal' perceptions. A hallucination is also a false perception - a perception in the absence of corresponding sensory stimulus, that doesn't map to external reality.
 
Dear Forum,

Electromagnetic radiation is invisible energy. The perception of visible light is a neural illusion in the sense that light and colors are creations within the brain; they do not actually exist outside the brain. Electromagnetic radiation does not travel through the optic nerves; only electrochemical impulses travel from neuron to neuron through the optic nerves to the neurons in the brain. The neurons in the brain then form an interpretation of the electrochemical impulses into a pictorial map/image of the outside world, creating the sensations of vision.

It is very easy to take vision for granted; after all, we see light and colors, but those light and colors that we think we see only exist in our minds. They are only neural sensations simulating what the outside world looks like. An illusion by definition is "something with deceptive appearance." A hallucination by definition is a "false sense perception," or "something imagined." These definitions do apply to the sensation of vision. Light and colors are something imagined within the brain, and the illusion aspect is the fact that we think we see light and colors when they do not actually exist outside our brain.

This video "uwtv.org/video/player.aspx?mediaid=16212471," from the University of Washington's psychology department, will help you better understand the phenomenon of vision. Visual acuity is not easy to understand, it will take you some thinking time to comprehend it. I promise you that this video is well worth your time to watch. Scoot Murray speaks in simple comprehensible terms. He is a show and tell sort.

I have a lot more to say about this topic as it relates to memory and consciousness, but you need a foundation to comprehend what I am talking about to understand my statement that light and colors do not actually exist, that they are only a neural illusion/hallucination within our mind.

If you chose to watch the video, I would very much be interested in your comments,

Sincerely, Mark Maloney

P.S. Soapy Sam, the link you provided did not contain relevant information, did you post the wrong link?
 
Dear Forum,

Electromagnetic radiation is invisible energy. The perception of visible light is a neural illusion in the sense that light and colors are creations within the brain; they do not actually exist outside the brain. Electromagnetic radiation does not travel through the optic nerves; only electrochemical impulses travel from neuron to neuron through the optic nerves to the neurons in the brain. The neurons in the brain then form an interpretation of the electrochemical impulses into a pictorial map/image of the outside world, creating the sensations of vision.

It is very easy to take vision for granted; after all, we see light and colors, but those light and colors that we think we see only exist in our minds. They are only neural sensations simulating what the outside world looks like. An illusion by definition is "something with deceptive appearance." A hallucination by definition is a "false sense perception," or "something imagined." These definitions do apply to the sensation of vision. Light and colors are something imagined within the brain, and the illusion aspect is the fact that we think we see light and colors when they do not actually exist outside our brain.

This video "uwtv.org/video/player.aspx?mediaid=16212471," from the University of Washington's psychology department, will help you better understand the phenomenon of vision. Visual acuity is not easy to understand, it will take you some thinking time to comprehend it. I promise you that this video is well worth your time to watch. Scoot Murray speaks in simple comprehensible terms. He is a show and tell sort.

I have a lot more to say about this topic as it relates to memory and consciousness, but you need a foundation to comprehend what I am talking about to understand my statement that light and colors do not actually exist, that they are only a neural illusion/hallucination within our mind.

If you chose to watch the video, I would very much be interested in your comments,

Sincerely, Mark Maloney

P.S. Soapy Sam, the link you provided did not contain relevant information, did you post the wrong link?

Your assertion that, "Electromagnetic radiation is invisible energy." is nonsensical. Look at the sun; you are seeing electromagnetic energy in the 430–790 THz range. While you do make some correct observations concerning color as an artifact of our visual system and we do use electromagnetic energy to perceive our environment only after it is processed by our visual system, there is no need to deny that we do perceive EM radiation. Is is not a "neural illusion." The neural processes involved in perceiving light are a mental representation of that light, not an illusion. The eyes, optic nerve, visual cortex, etc. are the structures with which we perceive electromagnetic radiation.
Sound is also a perception involving the brain with certain organs that create the perception of sound. That does not negate the fact that we perceive sound waves, meaning that we perceive the mechanical waves of air pressure involved in the phenomenon we call sound.
 
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