On Consciousness

[Zeuzzz]

I think everyone will define consciousness differently. Externalizing it into objectively quantifiable things things just seems to epically fail every time.

^ And that article is cool, but no surprise. We're practically half human technological/robot symbiots already, just sometimes hard to notice. Novelty has squared yearly ever since the advent of the internet, and will continue to do so

I guess in a similar way to moor's law, but not for hardware but for the consciousness that creates it in the first place.

We'll probably barely notice it when what that article is about comes true.

In fact we'll probably be annoyed at the terms and conditions, we'll have to go to the effort to think the word 'accept' to inform our neurally operated contact lens mounted operating system to upgrade.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Solved it.

Consciousness does not exist and scientifically defining it is futile, it's just a universal perspective, a logical kaleidoscope through which species lucky enough to become aware of it's existence and logical strength (through self introspection and reflection on the nature of nature) can use to do science.

Thread solved.

Consciousness obviously exists (at least I am self-aware now ) but it's not some thing I think and instead it's a state. In dreamless sleep my consciousness is off and when I wake up it is on. It's basically the same idea as to have a television set in on or off state. It would be illogical so say: "There is no on state for the TV." Or: "There is no difference between the TV being on or off." There is obviously a difference. It's just that the state is itself not made of its own substance or something like that and instead is a result of the physical system bringing the state about.

 

[Mr. Scott]

And some mainstream scientists, such as Amit Goswami (and Peter Russell if I remember correctly), claim that consciousness is what gives rise to physical reality instead of the other way around.

I believe physical reality is what causes the state of consciousness. And it's clear that physical reality is a oneness! (See previous posts about isolated systems.) So while many spiritual people talk about consciousness as oneness, I have started talking about physical reality as oneness, ha ha, and consciousness as merely separate states of being aware.

It doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is where the evidence leads. There's plenty of evidence consciousness is caused by the data processing of neural networks in living brains, as set up by millions of years of mutation and natural selection. There's no evidence of any other source of, or reason for, existing consciousness. Since there's also good mathematical theory that data processing computers can simulate nerve cells and neural networks, it follows that consciousness can some day be manifested in machines we create.

Contrary evidence is welcome.

 

[Anders Lindman]

It doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is where the evidence leads. There's plenty of evidence consciousness is caused by the data processing of neural networks in living brains, as set up by millions of years of mutation and natural selection. There's no evidence of any other source of, or reason for, existing consciousness. Since there's also good mathematical theory that data processing computers can simulate nerve cells and neural networks, it follows that consciousness can some day be manifested in machines we create.

Contrary evidence is welcome.

The brain (the nervous system) isn't an isolated system. It may be true that the brain is isolated enough so that approximately it can be said that the brain causes the state of consciousness to be on or off.

I keep ranting about physical universe being a oneness, because it's an important observation. Even if we can find a system that is truly isolated, then it is isolated from the rest of the universe by having ANOTHER system as an isolator. That's an interesting realization I had recently.

 

[Mr. Scott]

The brain (the nervous system) isn't an isolated system. It may be true that the brain is isolated enough so that approximately it can be said that the brain causes the state of consciousness to be on or off.

I keep ranting about physical universe being a oneness, because it's an important observation. Even if we can find a system that is truly isolated, then it is isolated from the rest of the universe by having ANOTHER system as an isolator. That's an interesting realization I had recently.

In what way, important to this conversation, is the brain not an isolated system? We're conscious when we dream or are in sensory deprivation, and for all intents and purposes, quite isolated.

 

[Anders Lindman]

In what way, important to this conversation, is the brain not an isolated system? We're conscious when we dream or are in sensory deprivation, and for all intents and purposes, quite isolated.

If the entire cardiovascular system, including all the blood, were to be removed instantly, then I suspect consciousness would be turned off immediately, but ok the body as a whole is pretty much an isolated system.

But even that may change! Nay, WILL change, because we will merge with technology and basically become one with the entire universe.

 

[Wowbagger]

Consciousness obviously exists (at least I am self-aware now ) but it's not some thing I think and instead it's a state.

I think it would be more useful, and perhaps accurate, to think of consciousness as an emergent property. There is no single "state", such as "on" or "off", but rather a continuous set of circumstances by which we can gradually become more, or less, aware of our surroundings and able to act as independent agents within them.

And, there might be different types of consciousness awareness. Lucid dreaming, non-lucid dreaming, and fully awaken could be 3 of such different forms. Certain types of seizures and/or drug effects might yield a few more.


ETA: The evidence for this is primitive, at the moment. But, this is the sort of thing one would expect, if consciousness is a natural occurance, and the result of natural processes (including, but not necessarily limited to, evolution by natural selection).

 

[Anders Lindman]

I think it would be more useful, and perhaps accurate, to think of consciousness as an emergent property. There is no single "state", such as "on" or "off", but rather a continuous set of circumstances by which we can gradually become more, or less, aware of our surroundings and able to act as independent agents within them.

And, there might be different types of consciousness awareness. Lucid dreaming, non-lucid dreaming, and fully awaken could be 3 of such different forms. Certain types of seizures and/or drug effects might yield a few more.


ETA: The evidence for this is primitive, at the moment. But, this is the sort of thing one would expect, if consciousness is a natural occurance, and the result of natural processes (including, but not necessarily limited to, evolution by natural selection).

I should perhaps have described the distinction between consciousness and the content experienced in consciousness. What I meant was consciousness as a state of being self-aware. In dreamless sleep my consciousness is off. When I'm asleep but dreaming then my consciousness is on! The content in consciousness can differ, yet consciousness itself can be thought of as an on/off state. For example my consciousness is aware of my thoughts. The thoughts are the content, actually objects, and my consciousness is the state, the subject, that is aware of the thoughts.

 

[MuDPhuD]

I should perhaps have described the distinction between consciousness and the content experienced in consciousness. What I meant was consciousness as a state of being self-aware. In dreamless sleep my consciousness is off. When I'm asleep but dreaming then my consciousness is on! The content in consciousness can differ, yet consciousness itself can be thought of as an on/off state. For example my consciousness is aware of my thoughts. The thoughts are the content, actually objects, and my consciousness is the state, the subject, that is aware of the thoughts.

What if you dream, but don't remember (as happens to most of us every night)?

What if I rearrange my desk, and later can't remember where I put a particular document? Was I unconscious while I did the rearranging (but remember doing it) or only unconscious when I filed that document? Or was I conscious the whole time, but can no longer access the memory?
How about the common experience of driving a familiar route to a destination while engaged in thought, and arriving with no recollection of the experience of driving there? Was an unconscious automaton driving the vehicle, or was it "me"?

If my short term memory fails completely, so I form no more memories of current events, do I become permanently unconscious? Or like a dog, "conscious but not self aware"?

 

[Wowbagger]

I should perhaps have described the distinction between consciousness and the content experienced in consciousness. What I meant was consciousness as a state of being self-aware. In dreamless sleep my consciousness is off. When I'm asleep but dreaming then my consciousness is on! The content in consciousness can differ, yet consciousness itself can be thought of as an on/off state. For example my consciousness is aware of my thoughts. The thoughts are the content, actually objects, and my consciousness is the state, the subject, that is aware of the thoughts.

The "state" of consciousness is probably more like a dimmer switch than an on/off switch. It's not just the content that differs, but the level, as well.

 

[Mr. Scott]

If the entire cardiovascular system, including all the blood, were to be removed instantly, then I suspect consciousness would be turned off immediately, but ok the body as a whole is pretty much an isolated system.

But even that may change! Nay, WILL change, because we will merge with technology and basically become one with the entire universe.

The power supply is not an interesting part of consciousness. You also lose phone service if you remove your cell battery, but that tells us nothing about how your cell phone works. There's no evidence conscious thought has any such connection with the universe, e.g. spiritual, new age, or quantum entanglement claims.

 

[deaman]

OK, I am just joking, but...

It's not missing the magic bean of consciousness. It just hasn't lived in our world long enough to "seem" conscious.

...do you know anybody, to whom this quote, may apply?

 

[quarky]

There's not much evidence of any aspect of consciousness. New age, old age, spiritual, mechanical.
It's philosophy.

 

[deaman]

Well, that's a new one.....

There's not much evidence of any aspect of consciousness. New age, old age, spiritual, mechanical.
It's philosophy.

...so, you don't think there is "any" consciousness, at all?

 

[Anders Lindman]

What if you dream, but don't remember (as happens to most of us every night)?

Memories are content being observed by consciousness. A memory of being conscious is not itself the state of consciousness. Take the television set analogy again. What if you had the TV on yesterday but don't remember it? Then the fact that your TV actually was on doesn't change if you lose memory of the event.

 

[Anders Lindman]

The "state" of consciousness is probably more like a dimmer switch than an on/off switch. It's not just the content that differs, but the level, as well.

It's true that for example the dream state is different than the ordinary waking state. Yet it's still either on or off. As an analogy, an electron represents consciousness being on. If there is no electron at all around the atom nucleus, then the state of consciousness is off. And when an electron is present, it can take on different energy levels, similar to different levels of consciousness.

 

[Anders Lindman]

The power supply is not an interesting part of consciousness. You also lose phone service if you remove your cell battery, but that tells us nothing about how your cell phone works. There's no evidence conscious thought has any such connection with the universe, e.g. spiritual, new age, or quantum entanglement claims.

But power isn't sufficient to produce say the state of a cell phone being on. Complicated technology is needed in addition to the power. Similarly, in the brain, there needs to be complicated patterns of interaction going on for there to be consciousness. In the video I posted earlier, the presenter talked about experiments where they sent a signal into the brain and measured its reflections and reverberations. And when the person was awake the signal reverberated a lot around the neurons in the brain and when the person was in dreamless sleep the signal quickly died off, something like that.

 

[Anders Lindman]

I suspect the universe is a SINGLE quantum state determined by a universal wavefunction:

"Since the universal validity of the state function description is asserted, one can regard the state functions themselves as the fundamental entities, and one can even consider the state function of the entire universe. In this sense this theory can be called the theory of the "universal wave function," since all of physics is presumed to follow from this function alone." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_wavefunction

So the brain is 'merely' a wave packet. Everything is waves (determined by the Schrödinger equation). Particles are wave packets, and complicated objects are composite wave packets.

The brain is not connected to other things in the universe as some separate object. The brain is a wave packet within all the waves making up the universe.

What the brain does is to make separations possible! Nonlocality and interconnectedness across the entire universe is easy since it's a given. The tricky part is how to cause separations within the wholeness of reality.

 

[quarky]

...so, you don't think there is "any" consciousness, at all?

Just mine.

 

[Mr. Scott]

...do you know anybody, to whom this quote, may apply?

I think I know where you are going there. Some people with no experience in certain areas of life might fail a consciousness test that merely tests that area, like the pic of the man planking in midair. It's not testing if your are conscious. It's testing what you are conscious of.