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Omnibus Spending Bill proposes end to DC Vouchers

I'm curious, what's a "bad teacher"?

One who does not teach well. If you are a teacher, surely you've got some idea about what makes someone a bad teacher or a good teacher.

50% of my students will fail this year. Does that make me a bad teacher?

No, it doesn't make you a bad teacher. You may be a bad teacher (I'm in no position to evaluate you), but one number like this without context will not indicate whether or not this is true, and I never actually suggested otherwise.

Why should my pay be determined by factors that are not within my control?

I'm not saying it should be. You seem to be sensitive to an argument that I didn't actually make, but I never advocated any particular method of evaluating teacher merit. I understand that certain methods are inadequate, but I do not believe that it cannot be done.
 
One who does not teach well. If you are a teacher, surely you've got some idea about what makes someone a bad teacher or a good teacher.

The trend is to pay teachers according to test scores, which is unfair. Fair teacher evaluation is time consuming (thus expensive), testing on the other hand generates a lot of easy to digest data.
 
And what is it Mr. Meadmaker :rolleyes: ?

We must decouple school attendance from geography. If where you live dictates where you go to school, the situation will persist.

I'll requote the paragraph again, for context, and I'll probably quote portions of it again. I have never seen it summarized quite so well.

The heart of the problem with our urban schools is neither the education bureaucracies nor teachers unions, as Chubb, Moe, and many other voucher advocates have contended, flawed though those institutions may be. Instead, as the sociologist James S. Coleman found in the 1960s, a student's family's income and the collective social and economic background of his classmates are by far the most important influences on his academic future. Not only do lower-income students tend to score relatively poorly, children of any background who attend high-poverty schools are far more likely to produce worse test results than they would in schools with primarily middle-class students. America's urban school systems remain almost universally dysfunctional, primarily because the country as a whole is about as segregated by race and income as at any time since the civil rights revolution.This means that in the existing voucher programs, which have been confined to city school districts, students have had only a limited choice between public schools in low-income neighborhoods and private institutions—mostly parochial schools—that serve almost identical populations.


Let's start with the single most important observation from that paragraph.

Instead, as the sociologist James S. Coleman found in the 1960s, a student's family's income and the collective social and economic background of his classmates are by far the most important influences on his academic future.

Does anyone want to disagree with this? It certainly fits the available data.

To add emphasis:

Not only do lower-income students tend to score relatively poorly, children of any background who attend high-poverty schools are far more likely to produce worse test results than they would in schools with primarily middle-class students.

Now, place yourself in a position of a middle class parent with a four year old child. Presumably, you want your child to do well in school. You want high test scores, which hopefully are correlated with high real knowledge. The single most important thing you can do to help your child to be a higher achiever is to get him into a classroom with other high achievers, and that means getting him into a school with primarily middle class students.

If you live in the City of Detroit, that means you move. If you can afford to move, and you have a child, you move. Or, you send that child to private school, where only (or mostly) middle class children can afford to attend. However, for the amount of money you need to invest, most people decide it's more cost effective to move.

And that is why our cities will remain segregated as long as the public schools exist in their current form. When my kid turned four, I moved. I was willing to live in a low income neighborhood, but I was not willing to send my son to school with our low income neighbors, for exactly the reasons Mr. Coleman identified fourty years ago. Sending him to school with those kids would have made it more likely for him to get low test scores than sending him to a school with primarily middle income kids.

It's that simple, and you quoted the research yourself.

So what's the solution? Obviously, you have to give the city kids the chance to get away from their low income schools. If they did that, more of them would choose to continue to live in the low income neighborhoods. That means less segregation in the neighborhoods, and in the schools.

The only way I can see to do that, realistically, is with schools of choice that cross school district lines. Vouchers are the most flexible program, but multi-district charter schools would work also.
 
On to some of the quibbles with TB's recent post.

I don't consider "statistically insignificant" to equal "modest"..
Some studies showed modest improvement. Some studies showed no improvement (i.e. statistically insignificant improvement.)

I consider wasting money that could be spent on educational based reforms that actually show real improvement to be harm

In Wisconsin, less money is spent by the taxpayers as a result of the voucher program. The savings could be used for "reforms that actually show real improvement." People act as if this is an either/or sort of thing.

In DC, the vouchers were funded with a supplemental appropriation. The District had the same amount of money, but fewer students. They could have funded those reforms with the savings.


Again, so what? It proves nothing about the effectiveness.

Again, the effectiveness stays the same (or maybe improves slightly according to some research.) The cost goes down. The people like it. Where's the down side?

Um, this thread is about DC, where the people didn't want it,

They didn't? Do you have any data to support that? I have only seen data on the participants. Not surprisingly, they liked it, otherwise they wouldn't have been participants.



Closing thought on popularity of voucher programs. In previous research, I ran across some interesting data concerning voting patterns on a proposed voucher initiative in California. The most interesting demographic, to me, was the childless homeowner voting segment. Childless homeowners in affluent neighborhoods voted strongly against vouchers. Childless homeowners in poor neighborhoods voted strongly for vouchers. Discuss. (If it suits your fancy)
 
On to some of the quibbles with TB's recent post.

Some studies showed modest improvement. Some studies showed no improvement (i.e. statistically insignificant improvement.)

... Did you read my post? Where did any studies find improvement for DC students?

In Wisconsin, less money is spent by the taxpayers as a result of the voucher program. The savings could be used for "reforms that actually show real improvement." People act as if this is an either/or sort of thing.

In DC, the vouchers were funded with a supplemental appropriation. The District had the same amount of money, but fewer students. They could have funded those reforms with the savings.
Imaginary worlds are imaginary. Evidence DC saved money? And that still leaves the problem of the "supplemental appropriation" being wasteful.


Again, the effectiveness stays the same (or maybe improves slightly according to some research.) The cost goes down. The people like it. Where's the down side?
Again, it isn't reform. It is an annoying red herring that doesn't do anything conclusively but make the parents feel good. There are better reforms out there that would help more students a significant amount, which is significantly more than a non-significant one.

And I am waiting for evidence that "the cost" goes down, and how you are defining that.

They didn't? Do you have any data to support that? I have only seen data on the participants. Not surprisingly, they liked it, otherwise they wouldn't have been participants.
Did you read my post?

Wow, the parents in the program liked it. They aren't a cross section of the population.

Closing thought on popularity of voucher programs. In previous research, I ran across some interesting data concerning voting patterns on a proposed voucher initiative in California. The most interesting demographic, to me, was the childless homeowner voting segment. Childless homeowners in affluent neighborhoods voted strongly against vouchers. Childless homeowners in poor neighborhoods voted strongly for vouchers. Discuss. (If it suits your fancy)
It doesn't. It has nothing to do with anything.
 
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We must decouple school attendance from geography. If where you live dictates where you go to school, the situation will persist.

I'll requote the paragraph again, for context, and I'll probably quote portions of it again. I have never seen it summarized quite so well.




Let's start with the single most important observation from that paragraph.



Does anyone want to disagree with this? It certainly fits the available data.

To add emphasis:



Now, place yourself in a position of a middle class parent with a four year old child. Presumably, you want your child to do well in school. You want high test scores, which hopefully are correlated with high real knowledge. The single most important thing you can do to help your child to be a higher achiever is to get him into a classroom with other high achievers, and that means getting him into a school with primarily middle class students.

If you live in the City of Detroit, that means you move. If you can afford to move, and you have a child, you move. Or, you send that child to private school, where only (or mostly) middle class children can afford to attend. However, for the amount of money you need to invest, most people decide it's more cost effective to move.

And that is why our cities will remain segregated as long as the public schools exist in their current form. When my kid turned four, I moved. I was willing to live in a low income neighborhood, but I was not willing to send my son to school with our low income neighbors, for exactly the reasons Mr. Coleman identified fourty years ago. Sending him to school with those kids would have made it more likely for him to get low test scores than sending him to a school with primarily middle income kids.

It's that simple, and you quoted the research yourself.

So what's the solution? Obviously, you have to give the city kids the chance to get away from their low income schools. If they did that, more of them would choose to continue to live in the low income neighborhoods. That means less segregation in the neighborhoods, and in the schools.

The only way I can see to do that, realistically, is with schools of choice that cross school district lines. Vouchers are the most flexible program, but multi-district charter schools would work also.

That is quite honestly the most hopelessly idealistic idea yet.

To state the obvious, most kids would still be left in the poor schools in the city, unless you want to bus in suburban kids.

Oh, wait, words aren't necessary, the real world disagrees as well:

But permitting students to move further, beyond school system boundaries, is unlikely to increase most students’ educational opportunities significantly. A new Education Sector analysis of school performance information suggests that only a limited number of students in a limited number of locations are likely to benefit from interdistrict choice—and even then only if carefully crafted policies succeed where many past programs have failed.
Using Geographic Information Systems (GIS) mapping technology of school performance information in California, Texas, and Florida, Education Sector has found that factors such as long distances to higher-achieving schools and limited capacity in such schools can sharply limit the ability of students to take advantage of interdistrict opportunities.
Studies of existing multidistrict choice programs have found that a lack of information for parents and inadequate transportation subsidies for disadvantaged families also limit the scope of many interdistrict choice programs. And there is little research evidence to support the premise that moving students to a higher-performing school alone will result in improved student achievement. In fact, many interdistrict choice programs have failed to produce the improved student performance and socioeconomic integration that interdistrict choice advocates envision. Some may have actually increased racial segregation.
Permitting students to seek out higher-performing schools in other school systems would enhance the educational opportunities of some students. But even under the best-designed interdistrict choice programs, the number of such students would be, in most localities, limited. The majority of students—80 percent to 90 percent—will remain in the same low-performing schools. Ultimately, policymakers will have to pursue additional solutions to the isolation of disadvantaged students and students of color in highly segregated underperforming schools.

http://www.educationsector.org/research/research_show.htm?doc_id=702217
 
It doesn't. It has nothing to do with anything.

Nothing? Nothing to do with anything? It's just coincidence?

To my way of thinking, a lot of people vote their pocketbooks. Childless homeowners had no direct stake in school funding. They were voting to protect or improve their property values.
 
Apparently Obama and the NEA do. :D

After reading many of your posts BAC I can't decide who you think is the most evil: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, Clinton(s) or Obama.

Perhaps when you have the time you should post a JREF poll.
 
From your reference:

Using Geographic Information Systems (GIS) mapping technology of school performance information in California, Texas, and Florida, Education Sector has found that factors such as long distances to higher-achieving schools and limited capacity in such schools can sharply limit the ability of students to take advantage of interdistrict opportunities.
(emphasis added) Why would there be limited capacity in a voucher system? The source in question apparently refers to programs, such as we have in Michigan, where school districts can open up their excess capacity to students from other districts. They are good programs, but, as the source noted, limited due to low capacity. Plus, the best districts almost never open their doors to the riff-raff.
 
Nothing? Nothing to do with anything? It's just coincidence?

To my way of thinking, a lot of people vote their pocketbooks. Childless homeowners had no direct stake in school funding. They were voting to protect or improve their property values.

Mmmm... Yup, nothing. I don't consider psychic evaluation of voting statistics to demonstratively show anything really.
 
From your reference:

(emphasis added) Why would there be limited capacity in a voucher system? The source in question apparently refers to programs, such as we have in Michigan, where school districts can open up their excess capacity to students from other districts. They are good programs, but, as the source noted, limited due to low capacity. Plus, the best districts almost never open their doors to the riff-raff.

Thanks you.

Jesus Christ, do you ever recognize when facts disagree with you?
 
Mmmm... Yup, nothing. I don't consider psychic evaluation of voting statistics to demonstratively show anything really.

I understand that sociologists and other social scientists often create studies whose value is on par with psychic evaluations, but to the extent that there might be any relevant data, you can read the study, entitled "Homeowners, Property Values, and the Political Economy of the School Voucher" here:http://mywebspace.quinnipiac.edu/ejbrunner/research/voucher2.pdf

I found it by typing "property values" + "school vouchers" into google.

Interesting stuff.
 
After reading many of your posts BAC I can't decide who you think is the most evil: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, Clinton(s) or Obama.

That seems like a personal attack. And a red herring since of course I think Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pot were far more evil than Clinton or Obama. In fact, I don't believe I've used the word "evil" with regards to Clinton or Obama. Criminal yes. Misguided yes. Leftist yes. Socialist yes. But evil? No ... I don't think so. Now with that settled, do you wish to contest my charge that Obama and the NEA would agree with Lefty or not? :D
 
That seems like a personal attack. And a red herring since of course I think Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pot were far more evil than Clinton or Obama. In fact, I don't believe I've used the word "evil" with regards to Clinton or Obama. Criminal yes. Misguided yes. Leftist yes. Socialist yes. But evil? No ... I don't think so. Now with that settled, do you wish to contest my charge that Obama and the NEA would agree with Lefty or not? :D

You are true, I should not have used the word "evil" and I apologize. With that said, your bias against Obama and the Clintons prevents you from being open-minded to the possibility that just maybe all liberal and/or Democrats (and their not the same though you use the words interchangeable) are not always wrong.

If President Obama found a cure for let's say, throat cancer today I bet you would say, "Yeah, but he didn't find a cure for brain cancer!."
 
You are true, I should not have used the word "evil" and I apologize. With that said, your bias against Obama and the Clintons prevents you from being open-minded to the possibility that just maybe all liberal and/or Democrats (and their not the same though you use the words interchangeable) are not always wrong.

If President Obama found a cure for let's say, throat cancer today I bet you would say, "Yeah, but he didn't find a cure for brain cancer!."

Dude, you guys won. You convinced enough people he was the Messiah to get him elected. Are you now trying to convince us he's an oncologist too?:D:eek:
 
After reading many of your posts BAC I can't decide who you think is the most evil: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot, Clinton(s) or Obama.
Okay...

Evil:

  • Hitler
  • Stalin
  • Mao
Not Evil (But Possibly Calamitously Wrong):

  • Clinton
  • Obama
Good

  • Pot
Don't knock it if you haven't smoked it.
 
Dude, you guys won. You convinced enough people he was the Messiah to get him elected. Are you now trying to convince us he's an oncologist too?:D:eek:

Black Jesus can do anything! :teacher:
 
If President Obama found a cure for let's say, throat cancer today I bet you would say, "Yeah, but he didn't find a cure for brain cancer!."

Another bogus red herring ...

Here, let's get back to the topic:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jun/08062507.html

June 25, 2008

... snip ...

Barack Obama told the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel in February that he was open to voucher programs, but just last week announced his intentions to squash the DC pilot program.

... snip ...

The Illinois Senator told the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel: "If there was any argument for vouchers, it was 'Alright, let's see if this experiment works,' and if it does, then whatever my preconceptions, my attitude is you do what works for the kids," the senator said. "I will not allow my predispositions to stand in the way of making sure that our kids can learn. We're losing several generations of kids and something has to be done."

But by June, the teachers lobby convinced Obama to work against the program.

The senator told ABC News last week: "We don't have enough slots for every child to go into a parochial school or a private school. And what you would see is a huge drain of resources out of the public schools."

Never mind that if the money were there, the free market would create those slots. Never mind that private education is on average far less expensive than public education. Never mind that private schools already have demonstrated they do a better job of educating students than public schools with SAT scores and graduation rates far above those for public schools. Never mind that parents have demonstrated time and again that they want and like vouchers. All that doesn't matter because Obama believes in socialist control of this aspect of our lives and needs to repay the unions that put him into power.

:D
 

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