Olympic Torch Relay Descends Into Chaos

[Wolfman]

Anyone who says China is communist is wrong as well. it's actually a single party dictatorship.

Really? What political party is in charge?

Damien is quite correct. China is not a Communist country. It has private business, capitalism, private property ownership, merit-based salaries, etc. All of which are anathema to a Communist system.

The party that is in charge of China is called the Chinese Communist Party. However, there are two important distinctions to make here. The first is that the CCP itself has discarded the majority of Communist ideology. The second is that having a Communist party in charge does not automatically mean that the country is Communist.

Consider the U.S. When the government changes hands from Republicans to Democrats, it doesn't mean that the United States changes from a Republican country to a Democratic country.

China is, most definitely a dictatorship. The party that heads that dictatorship bears the name of "Communist". But anyone who has spent more than 10 minutes in China in the past 10 years can confirm that it is very far from being a "Communist" country. Hell, in many ways, modern China is more capitalistic than the U.S. is.

As to the fuss and furor over the torch relay, I as expecting it. I share the opinion that others have expressed here that protesters should have the right to make their statements, so long as it is done peacefully, and within the boundaries of the law...regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

But I am saddened by the ignorance of the majority of the people actually doing the protesting. Fact is, few of them have a freakin' clue what the real situation in China is. Like the guy who screams, "Freedom for the Chinese!". Actually, the majority of mainland Chinese are quite satisfied with how things are going right now, and feel that overthrowing/removing the current gov't would result in more damage than good. Yeah, they want more freedom...but done in a controlled manner.

Sit these protesters down, and ask them to actually elucidate on the specific problems in China, and more significantly what solutions they suggest, and I'm quite confident that the majority of them would come off as babbling idiots.

I'm not against protesting abuses in China; I just feel that such protests should be done by people who know what the heck they're talking about. If you claim to "care about the Chinese people", but can't even take the time to research what the actual situation is, how seriously should I -- or anyone else -- take you? Truth is, the majority of these people do it more for their own sense of self-importance, than out of any real knowledge or conviction about the subject over which they're protesting.

 

[The Painter]

China is not a Communist country.

Yet you say this

The party that is in charge of China is called the Chinese Communist Party

How long has this party been in charge?

The party that heads that dictatorship bears the name of "Communist".

There’s that word again.

Aren’t the major industries government owned? Some may even be listed, but still state owned.

China is very capitalist now. Even Chairman Mao saw it coming so many years ago;

“There is a serious tendency toward capitalism among the well-to-do peasants”

If you don't want to be referred to as "communist" get rid of the word.

I agree completely with you about the protesters.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

To be Communist, you must follow the ideology - a name, while important, can be just a name with no meaning.

 

[Beerina]

Hmmm. Bailing on Communism causes their economy to leap forward. Perhaps "Communism" was just a diety-free religion to be the opiate of the masses.

 

[Ziggurat]

To be Communist, you must follow the ideology - a name, while important, can be just a name with no meaning.

The problem is that this essentially becomes a "no true Scottsman" fallacy. When every party or government which calls itself "communist" doesn't fit a particular definition, there's not much point in claiming that they are all therefore wrong to adopt the label. From a practical standpoint, they have changed the definition from what it once might have been. "Communist" means what those who call themselves communist actually do. Self-proclaimed communists who act like every other self-proclaimed communist are communists.

 

[gtc]

The debate comes down to one of a positivist definition vs a normative definition. It is useful to talk about the similarities between the various parties or organisations that call themselves communist even if those organisations or the countries they run don't actually meet the dictionary definition of communism. At the same time it is wrong to assume that a party calling themselves communist will behave like a dictionary-defined communist.

I haven't seen anyone mention the way the Chinese minders of the torch behaved in London. They didn't seem capable of handling the protests at all and just came across as thugs. I hope they can handle things better at the Olympics.

 

[Mycroft]

Should the Olympics be politicized like this?

Sure, I think so.

Maybe Carter went too far with the boycot decades ago, but protesting to bring attention to an issue is what freedom is all about. People should be made aware of the human rights abuses in China, and if the Olympics create an opportunity to raise awareness, then it should be used.

 

[a_unique_person]

But I am saddened by the ignorance of the majority of the people actually doing the protesting. Fact is, few of them have a freakin' clue what the real situation in China is. Like the guy who screams, "Freedom for the Chinese!".

I noticed that too. I thought the protests were supposed to be about Tibet?

 

[Space_Ed]

Oh my God!!! There is repression in China???? Stop it. You can't tell me that everyone didn't know that already. Protesting China, boycotting the Olympics, is all a bunch of crap. If you really want to make a difference..............don't buy products made in China. However nobody will do that. Go through your closet, check the labels on all your clothes. Don't forget to check you electronic items. Why I'll bet you are using something made in China just to post on this messageboard. Unless you are not buying Chinese goods, you are a hypocrite.

I think this is a silly thing to say. People are protesting about the Chinese government and the military. Not buying Chinese goods will generate even less income for the people that are being suppressed. Such as the Tibetans who do not consider themselves Chinese.

 

[Space_Ed]

Here is a good BBC report:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBpn61dSXTo

 

[Wolfman]

For those arguing that "The Party in China calls itself the Communist Party, therefore China is a Communist country (or the government is a Communist government)", I'd just like to point out the blatant idiocy of such an argument.

By your logic, all the government has to do is change its name to "The Chinese Democratic Party", and BINGO!!! China will be a democratic nation. In fact, by your logic, North Korea is not a Communist nation, or a dictatorship, since the name of THAT country is, "The Democratic Republic of Korea"...they are a democratic republic!!

Take off the blinders, people...and see past the labels. A country's political system and policies are defined by the actions of those governments, not by the labels that the parties in charge attach to themselves. China -- both the government, and the nation as a whole -- has abandoned by far the majority of policies that one would define as "Communist". Try making a list of the beliefs and principles of "Communism"...then see how many of those things are actually practiced or promoted by the government.

Too many people -- particularly Americans -- tend to equate "Communism" and "dictatorship". China is, by any standard, a dictatorship (albeit a dictatorship run by consensus of leaders within the sole legal party, as opposed to a dictatorship run by one specific individual). But its not Communist. Any more than North Korea is a democratic republic.

 

[Badger]

http://www.ktvu.com/news/15822740/detail.html is feed that I got a lot of
stuff from through the day.

I particularly enjoy the irony of the 1st paragraph! "The Olympic torch
was rerouted away from thousands of demonstrators and spectators who
crowded the city's waterfront Wednesday to witness the flame's symbolic
journey to the Beijing Games."

Yes, how symbolic to stack the photo ops, hide behind security and
secrecy, attempt to marginalize voices on both sides, obfuscate with
imagined or trumped up "threats" and "safety and security issues".

These definitely are the Beijing Olympics!!!

The light shines and the roaches scurry.....that picture kept popping into
my head the more I followed the updates! There was no standing firm in
plans, and going ahead in the face of contravercy, opposition, and
challenge. Even the closing ceremonies have taken on the stench of
something questionable, being done in secrecy!

Yes, how symbolic!

While this was an odious display, I hope that many around the world caught
the whiff. And I hope that, in itself, fosters investigation and change!

Those there participated in something historic today. Of this, I'm sure.
Though the vast majority did not see the torch, they bonded with others of like mind, and
WERE there! They WERE prepared to make their voice and their opinion
heard!

THAT is how history is made!

Please note that I think that it will be good for China to have the Olympic games. Many found out today (and in the previous torch ceremonies) that certain methods of doing things do not fly well outside of certain borders. It is my opinion that there will be other instances where standard ways of doing things will be found to be similarly lacking, and so foster change.

I also think that contact with the outside world by many, many Chinese citizens will also show them that differences are not a bad thing, and that there are other ways of doing things that work as well or better than those they are familiar with. A lot of people will be exposed to things previously unfamiliar, and will desire more knowledge, information, and experience.

I found today very interesting from another aspect. In a city with such diversity and history....the birthplace of the Beat generation, the Hippies, the alternative sexual revolution and other countercultures....in a city where idividuality and tolerance are prized, and not far from Berkely and all that centered there, free expression was so twisted by lip service to "safety" and "potential violence", and the wishes of a dictatorship were given priority by politicians rather than those who elected them.

I think today was a remarkable day.

 

[Badger]

http://www.ktvu.com/news/15822740/detail.html is feed that I got a lot of
stuff from through the day.

I particularly enjoy the irony of the 1st paragraph! "The Olympic torch
was rerouted away from thousands of demonstrators and spectators who
crowded the city's waterfront Wednesday to witness the flame's symbolic
journey to the Beijing Games."

Yes, how symbolic to stack the photo ops, hide behind security and
secrecy, attempt to marginalize voices on both sides, obfuscate with
imagined or trumped up "threats" and "safety and security issues".

These definitely are the Beijing Olympics!!!

The light shines and the roaches scurry.....that picture kept popping into
my head the more I followed the updates! There was no standing firm in
plans, and going ahead in the face of controvercy, opposition, and
challenge. Even the closing ceremonies have taken on the stench of
something questionable, being done in secrecy!

Yes, how symbolic!

While this was an odious display, I hope that many around the world caught
the whiff. And I hope that, in itself, fosters investigation and change!

Those there participated in something historic today. Of this, I'm sure.
Though the vast majority did not see the torch, they bonded with others of like mind, and
WERE there! They WERE prepared to make their voice and their opinion
heard!

THAT is how history is made!

Please note that I think that it will be good for China to have the Olympic games. Many found out today (and in the previous torch ceremonies) that certain methods of doing things do not fly well outside of certain borders. It is my opinion that there will be other instances where standard ways of doing things will be found to be similarly lacking, and so foster change.

I also think that contact with the outside world by many, many Chinese citizens will also show them that differences are not a bad thing, and that there are other ways of doing things that work as well or better than those they are familiar with. A lot of people will be exposed to things previously unfamiliar, and will desire more knowledge, information, and experience.

I found today very interesting from another aspect. In a city with such divesity and history....the birthplace of the Beat generation, the Hippies, the alternative sexual revolution and other countercultures....in a city where idividuality and tolerance are prized, and not far from Berkely and all that centered there, free expression was so twisted by lip service to "safety" and "potential violence", and the wishes of a dictatorship were given priority by politicians rather than those who elected them.

I think today was a remarkable day.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I hate to say it, but I think attacking the torch itself is uncouth and childish, and precisely the sort of behavior I've come to expect from some radical and reactionary activists who think it's appropriate to throw blood on people wearing fur, start shouting slogans during Congressional testimony or blockading abortion clinics.

Organizing along the parade route with "Free Tibet" signs makes the point, but doesn't attack a symbol that not only is supposed to transcend it's original political baggage, but current politics as well.

 

[dafydd]

I heard a Britsh athelete being interviewed yesterday.She said that she was worried about the air quality in Bejing.It would be more fitting if she was worried about the daily executions,the total censorship of the media and the oppression that will be going on while she's running around in circles in the stadium.

 

[fagin]

I heard a Britsh athelete being interviewed yesterday.She said that she was worried about the air quality in Bejing.It would be more fitting if she was worried about the daily executions,the total censorship of the media and the oppression that will be going on while she's running around in circles in the stadium.

Why pick on the athletes? When everyone using chinese products ie 99.9% of us, stops using them, including the demonstrators, then we can have the moral high ground.
Until then take off your pious face.

 

[dafydd]

Would you play tennis with your neighbour if you knew he was a torturer and a murderer? It's that simple. Pious is the last word you would use to describe me.Thank you for the lovely welcolme to the forum.

 

[marksman]

The whole point of the Olympics is to bring athletes together regardless of what their governments are doing. As far as I know, no members of the Chinese Olympic Team is a torturer.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

The whole point of the Olympics is to bring athletes together regardless of what their governments are doing.

Sorry but this is nonsense. The Olympics have always been political. How about London 1908 - surely before politics sullied the Olympic name, right?

Or not:

If you were Finnish, you had to march under the Russian flag;

The US refused to dip the flag to the Royal Box (as was traditional) because "this flag dips to no earthly king" (although the fact they forgot to put a US flag above the stadium may not have helped;

The Swedes didn't take part in the opening ceremony (again possibly due to the fact that their flag was not being flown above the stadium).

And that was just the opening ceremony!

 

[ImaginalDisc]

If you don't want to be referred to as "communist" get rid of the word.

I agree completely with you about the protesters.

By your "logic" Germany was a socialist country while the Nazis were in charge.