Oliver on the Iraqi death toll.

[Oliver]

I haven’t said anything about this. Nor was it the point of this thread.

You started off by complaining about islamic suicide-bombers, didn't you?
So how is this a threat to you at all?

 

[Par]

You started off by complaining about islamic suicide-bombers, didn't you?

The subject has been explained to you numerous times now. I’m not about to do so again. I suggest you cast your eye back to D'rok the Lacone’s penultimate post. You seemed to grasp the concept at the time, but it appears to have slipped away from you again.

Does this help?

Hypothetical: A member of Al Qaeda in Iraq straps a bomb to himself, goes to a market in Baghdad, detonates it, and kills dozens of men, women and children. Who is morally responsible:

a) The suicide bomber
b) The Islamist group he belongs to
c) America

Please explain your answer.

The suicide bomber himself is responsible.
Secondly, the Islamist group he belonged to.

Right. So, when you claimed that those killed in Iraq had been murdered by America, that was inaccurate. Fine. I’m very glad we’ve got there.

There. Subject (finally) addressed. Thread finished.

 

[Par]

So how is this a threat to you at all?

I have never once mentioned “threats” of any kind.

 

[Oliver]

The subject has been explained to you numerous times now. I’m not about to do so again. I suggest you cast your eye back to D'rok the Lacone’s penultimate post. You seemed to grasp the concept at the time, but it appears to have slipped away from you again.

My problem is that I still don't get you point how 50 or even
100 innocent people being killed in a suicide attack justifies
the destabilization of a whole country causing hundred-thousands
of deaths.

You may have lost your common sense here. The destabilization
was clear to many US and non-US Strategists - and therefore
the amount of killed innocent people isn't a surprise at all.

So what the **** is your point here? That America is a bunch
of Angels who didn't knew that this probably will happen???

Are you friggin kidding me?

The US does bare responsibility. More than you are willing to
accept. But this is okay for me as long you would sacrifice
your own family for BS-reasons as well.

 

[Par]

My problem is that I still don't get you point how 50 or even
100 innocent people being killed in a suicide attack justifies
the destabilization of a whole country causing hundred-thousands
of deaths.

I have never once made any such claim.

 

[gumboot]

What "murderous Islamists" are you referring to? The conflict
between Shia's and Sunni's is a very old one and Mr. VPotus
acknowledged this decades ago.

It was the invasion that sparkled the conflict we see today,
and again: Mr. VPotus acknowledged this decades ago.

Wow.

A recent invasion resulted in a "very old" conflict... and we knew this invasion caused this "very old conflict" decades ago?



-Gumboot

 

[Oliver]

Wow.

A recent invasion resulted in a "very old" conflict... and we knew this invasion caused this "very old conflict" decades ago?



-Gumboot

No, the conflict itself is an old one. To cause a power-vacuum
that will result in blind violence is another topic. And I accuse
the US to deliberately taking this into account (See Cheney
1994). So it is hypocrisy to whine about something that was
obvious ten years ago.

Your explanation for this is ... ? :

 

[Par]

So, it’s not just me. You just can’t understand anything anybody posts.

 

[Oliver]

So, it’s not just me. You just can’t understand anything anybody posts.

I fully understand - but in contrast to many other people
in here, I'm actually able to complain about my countries
and governments history while others in here cannot accept
that the US isn't innocent concerning ALL the things that
happen to them - including terrorism.

Blame others instead ...

 

[danielk]

OK, I have no time for this any longer. Oliver, welcome to ignore. Be proud, you're the only one on the list.

 

[Oliver]

OK, I have no time for this any longer. Oliver, welcome to ignore. Be proud, you're the only one on the list.

You're welcome for dodging topics.

 

[D'rok]

This:

The suicide bomber himself is responsible.
Secondly, the Islamist group he belonged to.

Just re-enforces this:

So, how do you square the “Killing 500,000 for flawed intelligence or imaginary threats is what I call murder” and the “I don’t”?

The answer to the question as to how you square those mutually contradictory assertions is that you don't/can't.

Which was the original point of the thread. Will you simply admit that your position is incoherent?

 

[Oliver]

This:

Just re-enforces this:

The answer to the question as to how you square those mutually contradictory assertions is that you don't/can't.

Which was the original point of the thread. Will you simply admit that your position is incoherent?

I will if you can confirm that you followed the discussion which
started in here:

So just who or whaat is Killtown? (

1 2)
achtung circus (Yesterday)

 

[Par]

So, it’s not just me. You just can’t understand anything anybody posts.

I fully understand - but in contrast to many other people
in here, I'm actually able to complain about my countries
and governments history while others in here cannot accept
that the US isn't innocent concerning ALL the things that
happen to them - including terrorism.

There you go again! You must have simply not read or understood the two posts in this thread where I clearly state that I believe that America shares the responsibility for the situation in Iraq.

 

[Par]

I will if you can confirm that you followed the discussion which
started in here:

So just who or whaat is Killtown? [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/misc/new_window.gif[/qimg] ([qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/misc/multipage.gif[/qimg] 1 2)
achtung circus (Yesterday)

There’s scarce need to. While this thread stems from the one you link to, it only concerns and very simple issue. All one needs to know is summarised in my first post in this thread.

 

[D'rok]

I will if you can confirm that you followed the discussion which
started in here:

So just who or whaat is Killtown? http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/misc/new_window.gif (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/misc/multipage.gif 1 2)
achtung circus (Yesterday)

Non sequitur. That's the thread where you made the post implying America is guilty of murdering 500,000 Iraqis. Par called you out on it and here we are.

 

[Oliver]

There you go again! You must have simply not read or understood the two posts in this thread where I clearly state that I believe that America shares the responsibility for the situation in Iraq.

I understand this - but I fail to see your point since I already
said that Suicide Bombers aren't a solution - nor a threat to
any nation.

 

[Elizabeth I]

I didn't read your Member-Details - so I apologize for assuming
you're an American Citizen...

Oliver automatically assumes that anyone who doesn't agree with his stance that the United States is at the bottom of all the misery in the world today and all the misery to come, including everything from the spread of AIDS to the rise in popularity of teacup poodles, is an American.

 

[WildCat]

I understand this - but I fail to see your point since I already
said that Suicide Bombers aren't a solution - nor a threat to
any nation.

Well then, Iraq is all hunky-dory. Just suicide bombers, therefore no threats to it.

 

[brumsen]

Could you please just answer the question?

When a Ba’thist, an al-Qaeda jihadi or a member of a sectarian death squad freely chooses to annihilate a marketplace full of innocent men, women children or to sink a power drill into the knee-cap of an Iraqi interpreter, why do you chalk that up as an American war crime? Indeed, Iraq was destabilised by the American-led invasion. However, are you able to explain the way in which this completely removed moral agency from the murderous Islamists currently operating there?

OK, I will have a try, though of course I can't be sure to speak for Oliver entirely.

For such a murder to count as a (result of) an American war-crime, it is not needed that the moral agency be completely removed from said islamists. You're simply posing a false dilemma.
Said islamist would be responsible, AND the American government also. It decided to invade a country in the full knowledge that destabilisation would result and that the way the military operation was set up would not allow them to deal with such destabilisation; that is a war-crime.
Ergo, the innocent civilian deaths are the result both of the Islamist's actions and the US government actions, and both bear responsibility.

However.... in order to substantiate that position it does seem to me that Stout's point about the exact body count needs to be adressed: "What happens if we compare the numbers of "innocents" killed under Saddam's regime, to the numbers killed under the occupation, how far apart might the two totals be?"
Anybody an idea about how to proceed on that one?

BTW, Par, how does your geographic location show that you are not an American citizen? (Have the troops in Iraq become Iraqis by going there?)