Oliver Mills - Dopamine Producer

[SpaceFluffer]

Very interesting that he just turned up at the JREF. I'd have to be supremely confident of my abilities to do that...

A few observations about this particular 'ability'.

- Dopamine levels (and all Catecholamine levels) can be increased via the ingestion of certain foods, drugs and by stress. I don't know how much they increase by, however. Anyone have any idea whether you could get close to a 15% rise by, for example, downing a few caffeine pills? I'm sure that by taking MDMA or one of the drugs designed to raise dopamine levels you could get 15%.

- I would imagine that a good protocol might be to alternate test samples. i.e. take a baseline, followed by a supposedly Dopamin-elevated sample, followed by another baseline, etc. But then I have no idea the time it would take Dopamine levels to return to normal if one could consciously raise them.

- Even if he can do what he claims, is this suitable for the JREF challenge? Some people can do freaky things to their physiology that are in no way paranormal in nature. How is this different, and indeed, paranormal in nature?

 

[KRAMER]

Remember, the applicant is stating that he can demonstrate this ON CUE, and that "normal" levels will be apparent prior to cue.

Obviously we won't let him drink or eat during the test, but just how well can a human being train himself to induce "stress" within 30 seconds or so, thusly producing significantly higher levels of dopamine?

We have contacted an expert and are anxiously awaiting his reply.

Obviously we now see that I may have accepted this claim far too quickly. It may not be parnormal at all.

 

[drkitten]

Very interesting that he just turned up at the JREF. I'd have to be supremely confident of my abilities to do that...

Were I somewhat more suspicious than I am, I might think that this was a cunning plan to crowd JREF into accepting (and testing) a claim more quickly than they otherwise might.

Such as, for example, a biochemistry-based claim that, while not paranormal, might appear to be such to a non-expert. For example, I know from first-hand experience that I have the ability to control my galvanometric skin response to a degree that surprises some medical personnel, but I never considered that paranormal. Based on my assessment of where KRAMER and Randi went to medical school, perhaps I should apply....

 

[Squidd]

So who did you think was going to be at the door, KRAMER? Anda, or Carey?

 

[SpaceFluffer]

Obviously we won't let him drink or eat during the test, but just how well can a human being train himself to induce "stress" within 30 seconds or so, and produce significantly higher levels of dopamine?

That's exactly what I'm wondering. I look forward to hearing the answer.

Also, you would not allow him to eat or drink, but it may turn out that one can acheive the claimed effect by hiding a couple of caffeine pills under the tongue and swallowing them at the right moment.

 

[SpaceFluffer]

Re: Re: Oliver Mills - Dopamine Producer

Were I somewhat more suspicious than I am, I might think that this was a cunning plan to crowd JREF into accepting (and testing) a claim more quickly than they otherwise might...

I had the same reaction. My statement (ellipses and all) was intended to subtley convey this sentiment. Perhaps it was too subtle

 

[drkitten]

Obviously we now see that I may have accepted this claim far too quickly. It may not be aparnormal at all.

I just did a quick Google search on "dopamine levels" and "biofeedback," and it looks like there's a lot of research out there about learning to control one's dopamine levels.

 

[KRAMER]

So who did you think was going to be at the door, KRAMER? Anda, or Carey?

ANDY ZWIERZYNA. This guy gives me the heebeejeebees.

He floods our JREF emailboxes with bogus notifications of "suspended email accounts", and had no trouble finding my private email address, and my website. He is presently attempting to hack the company that hosts my site, and seems unable to control himself or behave like an adult.

Yeah, this guy could definitely hurt somebody. He's the sole reason that I could never possibly be paid enough to work here.

 

[KRAMER]

Re: Re: Oliver Mills - Dopamine Producer

Were I somewhat more suspicious than I am, I might think that this was a cunning plan to crowd JREF into accepting (and testing) a claim more quickly than they otherwise might.

Not so cunning as it is expensive...all the way from Liverpool.

He claims to acheive this via "chi". His supporting data makes me believe that he is not a fraud, but yet another deluded individual.

 

[drkitten]

Re: Re: Re: Oliver Mills - Dopamine Producer

Not so cunning as it is expensive...all the way from Liverpool.

With respect, KRAMER, with a million bucks at stake, there are few places in the world to which I wouldn't fly.

 

[jmercer]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Oliver Mills - Dopamine Producer

With respect, KRAMER, with a million bucks at stake, there are few places in the world to which I wouldn't fly.

Expedia has roundtrip flights from Newark, NJ to London for $865. Orlando, Fla - $1,052.95.

A small investment, especially if you win.

 

[Gayle]

Back in the '80s when Dr. Barbara Brown wrote New Mind, New Body, I attended some workshops with her.

In short order, I taught myself to control my galvanic skin response, finger temperature, blood pressure and heart rate through bio-feedback. With practice, the changes could be made in a matter of seconds.

The changes were measured with various kinds of biofeedback equipment, but I never did have any blood tests to see what was going on with hormones or neurotransmitters.

Supposedly, these are outward manifestations of biochemical changes produced by the hypothalmic-pituatary-adrenal axis and other normal bodily systems.

It's a natural physical process that's usually involuntary in nature, but it can be brought under voluntary control with practice. Just about anyone who can concentrate or focus their attention can learn to do it. Biofeedback equipment speeds up the process, but is not necessary.

At the same time that Dr. Brown was active, the late Dr. Kenneth Greenspan, M.D., had a stress and pain clinic at Columbia-Presbyterian where he taught people to lower their blood pressure, control insulin levels, stablize their blood sugar, control pain, treat tinnitis and many other ills through biofeedback and autosuggestion. He used non-religious/non-spiritual meditation and relaxation techniques along the lines advocated by Dr. Herbert Benson, M.D., in his book The Relaxation Response. Greenspan was pushing the limit to see how many supposedly involuntary bodily processes could be brought under voluntary control through bio-feedback.

Some of the work was probably marginally woo, based too much on case study and anecdote rather than replicated research, but there was nothing mystical or paranormal about any of it.

(But who knows how it may have been transformed in the intervening years. You never know who might get religion when you're not looking.)

I can't see any reason why a person couldn't apply these same principles to changing their dopamine levels at will, with no paranormal powers at all. It would be a fancy trick, but not paranormal.

Research this one carefully, or the Million may be awarded for a good, and perfectly natural, trick.


Gayle

 

[Beleth]

ANDY ZWIERZYNA. This guy gives me the heebeejeebees.

He floods our JREF emailboxes with bogus notifications of "suspended email accounts",

If he just recently started doing this, it could be that he got infected by a variant of the Mytob virus, like this one.

But anyone that does those other things is spooky even without meaning to do this one.

 

[Ashles]

I hate to be the one to mention it, but we mustn't forget that 'under the tongue' isn't the only place medically active substances can be secreted and absorbed...
Perhaps surrounded by a protective membrane that can be removed surreptitiously

Who knows what people will do for a million dollars?

 

[Floyt]

This seems like a dangerous area for the Challenge to wander into. I'm not sure if this claim can be considered "paranormal" at all. The million might get stranded in the foggy reaches of poorly but generally understood biofeedback issues.

Also I have a feeling that the claimant knows it.

By act of spiritual will, chi, yin and yang

That sounds like a rather impromptu explanation - like, I can do this funny thing, let's dredge up some wild terminology to sell it to JREF. Not that "spiritual will" or "chi" are anything new around here, but the "yin and yang" seems downright gratuitous and decorative...

 

[kraatz]

...

Yeah, this guy could definitely hurt somebody. He's the sole reason that I could never possibly be paid enough to work here.

And yet, here you are.

 

[Gulliver]

This one is just too close to home...

All,

I'm going to be very candid herein. Please understand that I have significant emotional baggage with this topic.

I suffer from a cancer that attenuates my body's chemical reactions to emotional triggers. I suffer acutely from rapid rises in two catecholamines, Epinephrine and Norepinephrine. I am, to my regret, a bit of an expert on this topic. I also referred to this web page http://www.shands.org/health/information/article/003561.htm

These two catecholamines are found (and often measured) in the blood available by venipuncture as described in the challenge application. Please note that the catecholamine, dopamine, is not usually found in the blood outside the brain's protective barrier. (I confirmed this with Mrs. Gulliver who is a well-published Professor at a leading Medical School and Family Practitioner.)

In my case, I suffer such a increase that I experience several physical, sometimes life-threatening, symptoms within 15 seconds on the stressing event. One hallmark symptom for me is "flushing". When I flush, two bright red triangles appear on my skin beneath my eyes. I believe the catecholamines have been created and delivered through the bloodstream within that short period of time. I also believe that the increase is well over 100%, based on several abnormal lab reports that I have here beside me.

I offer that increasing catecholamine levels 15% on cue is not paranormal, but can be explained by normal, or diseased, physiology. I would suggest that the applicant's control is admirable, but not challenge-worthy.

On a personal note, my cancer is not curable, but not particularly aggressive. I, on the other hand, can be quite aggressive. So, I intend to fight both the cancer, and to contribute in my little way to the heroic effort here, very aggressively for years to come.

Hope that helps...
Gulliver

 

[drkitten]

Re: This one is just too close to home...

I suffer from a cancer that attenuates my body's chemical reactions to emotional triggers. I suffer acutely from rapid rises in two catecholamines, Epinephrine and Norepinephrine. I am, to my regret, a bit of an expert on this topic.

I'm very sorry to hear that, but delighted to hear that you're still fighting it aggressively. I hope that medical science can come up with some allies for you -- the boys in their white coats can be quite clever sometimes.

Out of perhaps morbid curiosity -- you say that you experience this catacholamine rise in response to emotional triggers and stress. Can you self-trigger, for example, think of something stressful, and get the appropriate physiological reaction? Even if you can't, would you believe that someone could develop that degree of physiological self-control?

I fear that, in light of your experience, the ability to self-trigger might be the only "paranormal" aspect of Mr. Mills' claim. If you can also self-trigger, there does not appear to be anything paranormal at all.

 

[Gulliver]

Self-triggering/Self-Control

Can you self-trigger, for example, think of something stressful, and get the appropriate physiological reaction? Even if you can't, would you believe that someone could develop that degree of physiological self-control?

I don't intentionally self-trigger, but I do regularly manage the feat. Most of the time, the triggers are external or physical, which I believe the protocol could reduce, or perhaps eliminate. A few times, I have emotionally self-triggered by recalling an unfortunate event. In all honesty, I could not pass the suggested protocol without practice. As you might imagine, I've worked on self-control to prevent these crises (going to a happy place cliché needed here).

I strongly believe that many individuals with sufficient practice could muster the self-control to demonstrate rapid increases (and decreases) in blood serum levels of catecholamines on cue. Increases could be effective within 15 seconds. A second increase/decrease cycle would take longer. I believe that the chemical (somatostatin?) involved in signaling the turning off of the response has a half-life of seven minutes. (My treatment includes three-times-a-day injections of a somatostatin analogue, Sandostatin, with a longer half-life.)

On a personal note, I commend Novartis for their effort in educating their patients. I also have no complaints about health insurance. My wife's insurance pays over $8,000 a month to keep me going. Cancer drugs are worth their weight in diamonds.

Regards,
Gulliver

 

[Gayle]

Gulliver, I extend my best wishes to you and trust you will be here in the forums giving 'em hell for many years to come.

I am no expert on this subject. I have just enough knowledge to get myself in trouble. A quick googling of dopamine + adrenal glands states all over the place that dopamine is a precursor of epinephrine and norepinephrine.

Here's an easy site, which I do not vouch for, that puts into plain language the same information that was in some vastly more complicated medicalese.

http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/catecholamines_tests.jsp

Catecholamines is a collective term for the hormones epinephrine, norepinephrine, and dopamine. Manufactured chiefly by the chromaffin cells of the adrenal glands, these hormones are involved in readying the body for the "fight-or-flight" response (also known as the alarm reaction).

...snip...

Instead of a venipuncture, which can be stressful for the patient, possibly increasing catecholamine levels in the blood, a plastic or rubber tube-like device called a catheter may be used to collect the blood samples. The catheter would be inserted in a vein 24 hours in advance, eliminating the need for needle punctures at the time of the test...

Because blood levels of catecholamines commonly go up and down in response to such factors as temperature, stress, postural change...

Some people experience a fight or flight response at the sight of a needle or at having blood drawn. Could this be the applicant's cue? Or could he possibly just think of something that produces fear or anger? Or change his posture? Hold his breathe? As Gulliver says, a 15% change is not that much.

What's the normal change that occurs during, say, a startle response? I don't know. But someone, somewhere has probably done research on it. We all know that adrenaline is released during a stress response, but I don't have a handle on the normal and expected dopamine levels during a stress response.

The fight or flight response happens immediately, within seconds, with no help from chi or ying or yang. It just happens. So that part of the applicant's claim is meaningless. If he has any skill at all, it's returning his levels back to normal after the rush in order to be tested three times.

When I was learning bio-feedback skills, the point was to stop that stress response, stop the adrenals from doing their automatic stuff, take three deep breaths, repeat the word calm, and stop the adrenaline rush. I don't know what my blood work might have looked like, but I was able to stop the outward manifestations of a fight or flight response within a minute or less.

To complicate the situation, if the applicant has an adrenal tumor, this could impact catecholamine levels and produce an exaggerated bodily response to a minor stress. His reponse might be abnormal, but that would be because he had a disease of the adrenals, not because he had paranormal chi powers.

Tumor or not, I just don't see how this applicant's claim to raise his dopamine levels by 15% on cue is paranormal in any way. With practice, I'm pretty sure I could do it, too. Self-triggering of a stress response is not difficult. All it takes is imagination.


Gayle