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Ok, why should *this* guy live?

That this scum deserves the death penalty is obvious. Whether there should be a system that delivers the death penalty is another issue. For example, in this case, there already is a death penalty system, but he avoided it, while it might well be that some people who are on death row are less horrible than he is, and some of them, for all I know, might actually be innocent (since human error occurs in all cases). The possibility of error, and the possibility of those less guilty receiving the worse punishment, should give us pause.

Well-put, and I agree.

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Yes, the state should punish these kind of people with death.

And what happens when (not if) the state finds and kills the wrong person for such crimes?

And what exactly is wrong with revenge?

It's really easy to be okay with such a policy, right up to the point where you are the target of such a policy. This is the fundamental flaw of the "there oughtta be a law" types of thinking.
 
I have always found this debate to be utterly puzzling, in particular one of the most commonly used arguments is that "he won't get the beating and rape that they will get in prison if you put them to sleep".

You see, it works both ways. If he is getting raped... Who exactly is raping him? Other prisoners like him...

Why do people naturally assume that the bad guys only turn into some poor raped slave victim and not the actual gang leader who rapes, punch and kill more innocent victims in the prison? He could be hurting even more people. Some of which could be those that were framed, innocently charged or even charged on a small crime that shouldn't deserve that threat. Not to mention he could attack the guards and what not. Riots in prison are not exactly unheard of. Plus there's that whole thing about him actually escaping.

The death penalty isn't about revenge. The fact that people opposing the death penalty say the guy should be suffering in any number of ways prooves that...

The death penalty isn't murder either unless you're claiming self defense as murder. Yes - it's self defense. If a person is found to be at the point that no matter what, he will inflict harm onto others then society has a right to take them out first and cast them away.
 
Man, I lost my textbook of logical fallacies. And here you are, with the perfect example to put under 'Strawman.' Thank you!

I've outlined everything that's a strawman in red. I've outlined irrelevant conclusions in blue. I've outlined basic missing the entire point in green. I used orange for all the good arguments.

I have always found this debate to be utterly puzzling, in particular one of the most commonly used arguments is that "he won't get the beating and rape that they will get in prison if you put them to sleep".

You see, it works both ways. If he is getting raped... Who exactly is raping him? Other prisoners like him...

Why do people naturally assume that the bad guys only turn into some poor raped slave victim and not the actual gang leader who rapes, punch and kill more innocent victims in the prison? He could be hurting even more people. Some of which could be those that were framed, innocently charged or even charged on a small crime that shouldn't deserve that threat. Not to mention he could attack the guards and what not. Riots in prison are not exactly unheard of. Plus there's that whole thing about him actually escaping.

The death penalty isn't about revenge. The fact that people opposing the death penalty say the guy should be suffering in any number of ways prooves that...


The death penalty isn't murder either unless you're claiming self defense as murder. Yes - it's self defense. If a person is found to be at the point that no matter what, he will inflict harm onto others then society has a right to take them out first and cast them away.
 
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And what happens when (not if) the state finds and kills the wrong person for such crimes?

The same thing that happens when a police oficer shoots a guy who holds something to him that looks like a gun but turns out to be something else.

The same thing that happens when a military operation blow up a house full of terrorist without knowing that there was an innocent bystander hiding behind it.

Is it a good thing? No.
Should we take any form of precaution to prevent that from happening? Sure.
Does that mean we lose our ability to make a sound judgement? Absolutely not.

Accidents happen. It's unfortunate, but they are still accidents.
An innocent man that's put to death by the state is not a problem for the penalty, but for the system that found him guilty in the first place.
 
The same thing that happens when a police oficer shoots a guy who holds something to him that looks like a gun but turns out to be something else.

There is a difference there. In most western legislation that right to use lethal force in self defence only applies in situations where, without being psychic or clairvoyant either way, you had a good reason to believe that danger was imminent and immediate.

You are allowed to shoot a guy who's pulled a gun on you when you told him to raise his hands and assume the position. Even if it turned out to be a toy, you had every reason to believe that you have a split second to shoot him before he shoots you.

You are _not_ allowed to shoot some guy you've arrested and handcuffed, just because you believed that he might take revenge later.

You are _not_ allowed to shoot someone, or at least not in self-defense, just because you believed he might go home and get a gun and get you later.

I see the right of self-defense of society along the same lines, really. If some guy is about to kill someone right now, sure, bust a cap in his sorry rear. But preemptive self-defense when he's unarmed and in jail isn't really self-defense at all.

Now you could still argue for the death penalty on other grounds. It's not like there's a shortage of arguments both pro and against. But self-defense it ain't, unless he is about to shoot/stab/someone right now and killing him is just about all you have time to do in that narrow time window.

I mean, heck, the very fact that they have time to have a lengthy re-trial and have the execution scheduled for later, would very much rule the imminent danger out. Killing someone for what they might do next year is not self-defense in any accepted or acceptable legal definition.
 
Well, I mean, it's obvious. Places that have the death penalty have such a low rate of commission of capital crimes, because the death penalty is such an excellent defence.

Oh, wait....

Rolfe.
 
If you're attempting to say that murder is fine when it's mandated by a court, I think you're wrong. Murder is wrong in all situations. Society should not lower itself to that level, even for guys like this one.
If you're attempting to say that imprisonment is fine when it's mandated by a court, I think you're wrong. Imprisonment is wrong in all situations. Society should, blah blah blah.

I am generally against the death penalty, because there are too many times that someone is in prison and killed or nearly killed and then someone vindicates him because of DNA evidence.

However, when you admit you did it, not only NOT under any sort of duress whatsoever, but in a mocking and boastful way, IN WRITING? Darwin Award.
 
Mostly unrelated, but this is why I don't like Johnny Cash. He actually set up and entertained guys like this one. How can you respect a guy like that?

Okay, on with the metamorphosis of this thread into a death penalty debate. Go!
 
You misread. Society or the State should not ever reduce itself to the level of the murderer, which it does by using capital punishment. And yes, society would be better off without him, which is what life imprisonment is for.

Death is more economical.
Why pay tens of thousands to support him in prison when you can spend a few cents on a bullet to just put him down?
Society shouldn't have to pay for his crimes as well...especially in the literal sense...
Obviously he's human waste, I think sympathy is too good for him.
Might make me a jerk, but I would expect no less for myself, my family or anyone else...
 
The same thing that happens when a police oficer shoots a guy who holds something to him that looks like a gun but turns out to be something else.

The same thing that happens when a military operation blow up a house full of terrorist without knowing that there was an innocent bystander hiding behind it.

Is it a good thing? No.
Should we take any form of precaution to prevent that from happening? Sure.
Does that mean we lose our ability to make a sound judgement? Absolutely not.

Accidents happen. It's unfortunate, but they are still accidents.
An innocent man that's put to death by the state is not a problem for the penalty, but for the system that found him guilty in the first place.

HansMustermann already pointed out a big flaw in what you're saying, but the biggest flaw is that you're comparing the death penalty of an innocent to accidental death. There's nothing accidental about the death penalty, and neither is wrongful conviction an accident-- the conviction is a willful act.

And you're also wrong about it affecting the ability to make a sound judgment-- this is actually something police officers are often required to seek therapy for, it contributes to PTSD when it happens to soldiers and law enforcement, and overall it creates known second-guessing in those who commit to an often-noticable degree.
 
Death is more economical.
Why pay tens of thousands to support him in prison when you can spend a few cents on a bullet to just put him down?
Society shouldn't have to pay for his crimes as well...especially in the literal sense...
Obviously he's human waste, I think sympathy is too good for him.
Might make me a jerk, but I would expect no less for myself, my family or anyone else...

The problem is that in most cases you don't know for sure if you got the right human waste.

Believe it or not, the justice system isn't infallible. People are more often than not convicted based on circumstantial or outright shoddy evidence, and on a burden of proof that is hardly more than "well, can you support another possibility?"

There have been people convicted for homicide on as thorough a lack of evidence as that nurse who went to jail just because more people died during her watch than on the watch of the other nurses. Absolutely no evidence, no motive, nothing else than a mild statistical fluke. She was working in ER, BTW, so, you know, that might have played a role too.

There are real examples like:

- Charles Fain exonerated and freed after almost 18 bloody years on Idaho's death row. A conviction based on a shoddy testimony and in spite of Fain's having an alibi and several witnesses for the time the crime happened. Turns out that when they finally tested the evidence for DNA, it wasn't him after all.

- Miguel Roman who was exonerated after serving 20 years of a 60 years murder sentence. Again, he's a fine example of how you can be sentenced based on shoddy evidence. An actual FBI investigator had testified at his trial that their tests had already elliminated him as a suspect. The jury convicted him anyway.

- Kirk Bloodsworth, the first man exonerated by DNA testing, but not before spending 9 years in jail and 2 years on the death row for a murder he did not commit.

- Barry Gibbs, freed after 19 years in jail, after the only witness against him admitted that he had been coerced by the cops to essentially commit perjury

- Cameron Todd Willingham, convicted in 1992 and executed in 2004 for the murder of his own children via arson. Based on nothing more than the testimony of an "expert witness" that the fire couldn't have been accidental. In 2006 the evidence was submitted to the Texas Forensic Science Commission. They found that not only the fire was accidental, but the testimony of that "forensic expect" at his trial was scientifically invalid. Once you removed the BS, there was _no_ evidence against him at all. Exonerated, but too bad they had executed him already.

- Ernest Willis, served 17 years for arson, based on a similar "forensic expert" testimony, that was proven to be just as bogus by the same commission.

Etc.

So, really, the question isn't whether you should let a murderer live, but whether you're comfortable with the idea that several innocents can be executed for something they did not do, based on shoddy circumstantial evidence.

One guy in the above list was actually executed for the accidental death of his children, FFS, as if said death wasn't grief enough for a parent.

Ok, so he's been exonerated. Too bad they already killed him, eh? You can't resurrect him.
 
Well, I mean, it's obvious. Places that have the death penalty have such a low rate of commission of capital crimes, because the death penalty is such an excellent defence.

Oh, wait....

Rolfe.

It's a 100% effective deterrence against that person being executed.

And besides there are countries with the death penalty that have significantly lower rates of murders than others that do not. That said, I do not think that the death penalty is really an effective deterrent against capital crimes against the population as a whole, nor do I think that capital punishment causes more capital crimes. I think that it is a cultural thing more than anything else.
 
No; that would be double jeopardy.
Once you've been acquitted of a crime, that's the end of it.

Maybe you should tell that to John Gotti Jr.



I don't believe anybody has the right to murder anyone, even if it is implemented as a punishment. Government bodies act on the emotion of the people, not the rationality. It does not provide deterrence nor is there a financial advantage of sentencing someone to death compared to life behind bars without the chance of parole.
 
Maybe you should tell that to John Gotti Jr.

A hung jury is not the same thing as an acquittal.

I don't believe anybody has the right to murder anyone, even if it is implemented as a punishment. Government bodies act on the emotion of the people, not the rationality.

As has been pointed out many times, capital punishment is by definition not murder.

It does not provide deterrence nor is there a financial advantage of sentencing someone to death compared to life behind bars without the chance of parole.

It does deter that particular person from ever hurting anyone again.
 
A hung jury is not the same thing as an acquittal.

True. Mistake and misunderstanding on my part.


As has been pointed out many times, capital punishment is by definition not murder.

Just because a state or country makes it legal, doesn't make it right. The basic principle of murder is still being implemented.


It does deter that particular person from ever hurting anyone again.

What is your point? The same thing can be achieved by sentencing someone to life in prison with no chance of parole. With a capital murder charge, they are normally segregated from general population.
 
Eye for an eye is a crap philosophy that we should have matured out of by now as a society.

Considering some alternatives, it isn't all that crappy. Punishment is proportional to the crime. There are societies that haven't gotten to this level yet; when the Danes published cartoons of Mohammed, the Iranians didn't respond with funny pics of Jesus.
 
It's a 100% effective deterrence against that person being executed.

And besides there are countries with the death penalty that have significantly lower rates of murders than others that do not. That said, I do not think that the death penalty is really an effective deterrent against capital crimes against the population as a whole, nor do I think that capital punishment causes more capital crimes. I think that it is a cultural thing more than anything else.
So it's not deterrence, it's revenge pure and simple? I agree. I'm just glad I don't live in such a vengeful country.
 

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